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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Ron and list,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>My pellets tests were with my mini stove, combustion chamber of 11cmx11cm, total height 30 cm, PA door 11cmx3cm (a lot larger than all can stoves, probably). For other large biomass such as wood, corn cobs,… adjusting PA door give noticeable change in flame level. When using pellets (saw dust pellets, 6m diameter), the PA door gave almost no change in flame level at most of the time, the flame just burn in the area about 5-8cm above the secondary air holes. Toward the end the flame go a bit higher and the PA door started to have a bit effect in adjusting flame level. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>About the metal net, it was a fine mesh, similar to the insect screen net (1mm maybe, will measure it next week when I come back to workshop). It was a unbranded stainless steel net, I picked up a few types from local shops for testing. I already tried to put the net above or below the concentration cap and moving it up, down a bit and here are some results:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Putting net on top of concentration cap is more feasible as it is easier to move, can remove it easily to add fuel. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Too large open net >3mm: no change.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>3mm net reduce the fire level a bit, but not much.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><![if !supportLists]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><span style='mso-list:Ignore'>-<span style='font:7.0pt "Times New Roman"'> </span></span></span><![endif]><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1mm net: putting up too soon will kill the fire, only put on when the flame is stable. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It’s a good idea to do WBT with and w/o the net, I will try it and also measure the total cook time and char creation too.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Please note that my above observation is for wood stick on our medium stove (combustion chamber 16x16x35cm).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Anh<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ronal W. Larson [mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, April 09, 2014 11:05 AM<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass; Anh<br><b>Cc:</b> Julien Winter; revjcsd@juno.com<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] My current project - very unfinished<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Anh, list, ccs<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>1. Re your first point on primary air (PA) supply needing to change toward end of the burn - I’d like to hear more on this. Anyone monitoring weight loss in real time should be able to say whether this is flat or increasing (meaning higher power output or burn rate). My experience from visual observations of a boil rate - has been that the power stays remarkably constant during a run. Others? (Maybe there is some compensating effect on fuel packing as it settles? We need more experimental data.)<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>2. I am very intrigued by your observations on a “metal net”. Radiant heat transfer can be much more efficient that convective. Can you describe the net used in more detail? What mesh size? a measured “openness” ? - a company name and model? I hope you have access to more mesh sizes and can report back. Could be a major help for char-making stoves. It would be interesting to just use a simple water boiling test (WBT) to compare efficiencies with and without a net - even if power level went down and time to boil went up. Maybe different nets could give different power rates - one just right for simmering after no net gave a rapid boil.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Apr 7, 2014, at 3:40 AM, Anh <<a href="mailto:ntanh@greengenvn.com">ntanh@greengenvn.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Jock and Julien,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As per my observation with pellets, as pellets are small size, the space between them is small and it limit the PA from coming up to pyrolysis zone, even fully open PA may not be enough. Towards the end, when there is less pellets left, more PA will come up and may need to reduce it a bit.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I tried another way similar to with Julien did. I placed a metal net on top of the cap (concentration cap), it keep the flame lower, less soot and the net glowing red look quite nice. But it have some problem too, at some early time, it may reduce the airflow too much and not enough PA get in so I can only put on when the fire is stable.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Anh</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Jock Gill<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Monday, April 07, 2014 7:47 AM<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Julien Winter<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="mailto:revjcsd@juno.com"><span style='color:purple'>revjcsd@juno.com</span></a>; Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Stoves] My current project - very unfinished</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Julien,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Glad you like the looks of Trash Can School of Pyro-Grilling ;-)<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I do not have any instrumentation. I can tell you, however, that I have not problem with the pyrolysis front stalling once it gets going. I have some thoughts on this initial phase problem. I will try starting the unit with no restrictions on access to primary air. Then once things are HOT, I will restrict access for the rest of the burn. I will report back on this.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The oxygen supply may be a problem vis the secondary air: not enough to get good clean combustion. It might be good to raise the top of the draft can above the top of the outer can to avoid any combustion gases being sucked back down into the system? I will also try this tomorrow. Thanks for the tip!<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Jock<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Jock Gill<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>P.O. Box 3<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Peacham, VT 05862<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cell: (617) 449-8111<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><u><a href="http://google.com/+JockGill"><span style='color:purple'>google.com/+JockGill</span></a></u></b><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Via iPad<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>On Apr 6, 2014, at 8:24 PM, Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com"><span style='color:purple'>winter.julien@gmail.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Hi Jock et al;<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>That is a nice rig you have in the garbage can, and I like the burner.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I once tried heating the primary air, from the sidewalls of a TLUD, and I found that it reduced the buoyance effect within the fuel bed. As the reaction progressed and the TLUD became hotter, the flaming pyrolysis front stalled to a smolder. Besides a lower temperature gradient within the fuel bed, there may also be a problem with oxygen supply, because the density of air decreases as it expands according to Charles’s gas law: V1/T1 = V2/T2<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>To me, it doesn't look like that will be a problem in your garbage can, because of its size relative to the stove, but it is something to think about.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>In my last email to "Stoves" I almost included a picture of my Jack Russell Terrier guarding a TLUD. She likes cat.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cheers,<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Julien<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'> <o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Jock Gill <<a href="mailto:jg45@icloud.com" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>jg45@icloud.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Here is what I am working on. Still figuring things out.<br><br><IMG_3155.JPG><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The idea is to use a large outer can, in this case a 20 gallon unit, to do some pre-heating, but not so much as to create a run away retort effect, capture some hot air for warming, a pseudo turn down effect, keep breezes out of the air system, contain the fire and charcoal for safety. Cook on high heat over the "fire", slow cook or warm, on the hot air around the edges. The air there gets so hot you can not pick up a pot by its handle.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>It would be possible to mount a removable grill a bit below the top of the outer can.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Above, I have used a gas stove grate to support a pan over the fire in a unit made from two coffee cans -- about 6 inches in diameter. More on the cans latter.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Note: There are no holes in the outer can at all. it is working by down drafting air for both the primary and secondary air ports. The primary air is supplied by thirty eight 3/32 inch holes in three rings. The secondary air is currently a single row of 3/8th inch holes about 1 cm above the bottom plate of the FXJ burner. It is very clear that I need more secondary air in just the right place.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So far, I can get flamelets, but also quite a bit of very soft soot. There appears to be no creosote.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><image.jpeg><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I've cut the primary air supply gap way down. Next I will try a second row of 3/8s inch secondary air holes. This configuration is hard to start, but once it gets going, it really gets going.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>A pyrolysis process with a 6 inch diameter produce an awful lot of gas. I am finding it a challenge to achieve a favorable fuel to air ratio. If I can find it, I am hoping the soot deposits will vanish, or at least become minimal.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>More as it is.<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Jock<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Jock Gill<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>P.O. Box 3<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Peacham, VT 05862<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Cell:<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="tel:%28617%29%20449-8111" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>(617) 449-8111</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><u><a href="http://google.com/+JockGill" target="_blank"><span style='color:purple'>google.com/+JockGill</span></a></u></b><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:<o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Via iPad<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br clear=all><br>--<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Julien Winter<br>Cobourg, ON, CANADA<o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=1 width="100%" noshade style='color:#A0A0A0' align=center></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG -<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><a href="http://www.avg.com/"><span style='color:purple'>www.avg.com</span></a><br>Version: 2013.0.3462 / Virus Database: 3722/7304 - Release Date: 04/05/14<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:13.5pt'><span style='font-size:13.5pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><span style='color:purple'>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"><span style='color:purple'>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"><span style='color:purple'>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - <a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2013.0.3462 / Virus Database: 3722/7307 - Release Date: 04/06/14<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>