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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Jock, Kevin and all,<br>
<br>
Jock, please provide info/links etc about the Jerry Whitfield's
new heater that produces biochar [and please use a new Subject
line]. Depending on its price and capabilities, it might have a
market for some affluent people. Perhaps not enough to make it
"profitable", but there is more to this discussion and the needed
actions than only about making profits. [[ Similarly, the
cookstoves-for-impoverished-people activities are not driven only
by profit motives --- although that is where the money seems to
be going. ]] What has Whitfield offered?<br>
<br>
Kevin, you wrote in your reply to Jock:
<blockquote type="cite"><font face="Calibri" size="4">#Given that
the wood energy distribution is about 50% in the Char and 50%
in teh pyrolysis gases, a person wanting an efficient,
effective and safe stove would have to consume roughly twice
as much fuel for the same stove effect.</font></blockquote>
one correction: in biomass, about 70% of the heat energy comes
out with pyrolysis (30 % stays in char). But about 50% of carbon
atoms are in the char and in the released (usually combusted)
pyrolytic gases. And about 20% of weight is in the char and 80%
of weight is gone via the pyrolytic gases and moisture content.
Could be plus or minus 5 to 10% in all cases depending on how a
device is operated, and it varies with some biomass.<br>
<br>
I learned from Tom Reed and others that it is the hydrogen in
carbohydrates (C+O+H) that gives the energy difference.
Otherwise you would be correct that combustion of half of the
carbon would give half of the energy. The other interesting
fact from this that impressed me is that the Oxygen released
during pyrolysis (from within the fuel, not from the surrounding
air) will readily "combust" with the Hydrogen to give H2O,
probably in the instant of pyrolysis that releases those atoms in
a hot environment. There is some surplus H that comes out with
the pyrolytic gases, but how much is beyond my training and
interests in chemistry.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 5/21/2014 2:01 PM, Jock Gill wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:BEC1B26E-B5C9-4255-9E0A-D99E4F4FE372@jockgill.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
Ronald,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I was actually not saying do nothing, but rather trying to
draw attention to the need to move beyond combustion if we wish
to address the issue of excess CO2 in the atmosphere. Any
conversation about new and improved stoves should look at the
future as well as the present. I did not see that in the
announcement for the Collaborative Stove Workshop. I only saw
combustion. Did I miss something?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am fully aware of the bang for the buck in charcoal and
also fully aware that the market, at scale, for such does not
yet exist. This makes the effort to fund commercial scale
pyrolytic devices very difficult. Investors want to know what
price you will get in the afternoon for the charcoal you make in
the morning. Today, there is no reliable answer to that
question - esp. if we are talking in terms of tons.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am not sure what you mean about savings, as I tend to see a
very distributed model working with local waste streams. I am
not generally in favor of large centralized plants which might
very well require the transport you mention. Further, the
biomass does not have to be “dry” so long as it has a moisture
content of 20% or less. I am not sure what you are basing your
assumptions on, but they are not correct.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Of course, pellet mills that everyone likes do tend to be
large and centralized and do require transport of raw material
to the plant and finished product to the end user. How many
ship loads of pellets go from North America to Europe? I
suppose you would agree that, if transport is OK for wood
pellets, then at least a similar degree of transport would be OK
for biomass feed stock for pyrolysis?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jock</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
Jock Gill<br>
P.O. Box 3<br>
Peacham, VT 05862<br>
<br>
+1 (802) 503-1258<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On May 21, 2014, at 1:31 PM, Ronald Hongsermeier <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de">rwhongser@web.de</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"> Dear Jock, <br>
It seems to me that you confuse mitigate and extract. Dean
and John seem to me to be looking for a marketable way to
contribute positive change to the renewable side of the
things. Your logic seems to me to be saying: "If you can't
extract, don't do anything!" I think that's at least wrong
headed even within your logical framework. Also, if you
allow the neutral side of things onto the playing field
there may also be a market for the char -- maybe not a
market you like, but there's more bang for your buck in
charcoal and you could also figure in the savings on
transport costs over against dry-raw biomass.<br>
<br>
respectfully,<br>
Ronald von Bayrischradltraumtag<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 21.05.2014 18:33, Jock
Gill wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:C17C0D41-6377-4DA2-BE79-D19D04FCE9F7@jockgill.com"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<div>Dean & John,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The simple fact is that no combustion device will
ever remove carbon from the atmosphere. If a
fundamental problem is that there is too much CO2
[carbon] in the atmosphere, then removing carbon from
the atmosphere is an essential imperative.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The most direct, simple and proven way to remove
carbon from the atmosphere is the pyrolysis of
biomass. Therefore, what we need are heating devices
that are based on pyrolysis. Combustion is both old
school and not an answer to the imperative of carbon
removal.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For the record, Jerry Whitfield, who designed and
manufactured the first working wood pellet stove in
1984, has now developed the designs for a pyrolytic
parlor stove. Unfortunately, at this time, there is
no market for the carbon [biochar] that such a stove
would create. Until such time as the imperative of
removing carbon from the atmosphere is recognized and
valued, perhaps a significant carbon tax, there is no
way to commercialize pyrolytic devices in general,
much less for residential use. It may also be
required that we reject the old industrial era model
of extraction and exploitation and replace it with a
model more early akin to regenerative stewardship,
with an eye towards a future that could be vibrant,
dynamic and abundant. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thoughts?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Regards,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Jock</div>
<div><br>
<div>Jock Gill</div>
<div>P.O. Box 3</div>
<div>Peacham, VT 05862</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration:
underline; background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255,
0);"><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://google.com/+JockGill">google.com/+JockGill</a></span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="background-color: rgba(255, 255,
255, 0);">:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere!
<:</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
Via iPad</div>
<div><br>
On May 21, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Dean Still <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><span
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">Dear
friends,</span>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">
Renewable energy technology is developing
quickly to mitigate global climate change. We
don't have any time to lose if wood and pellet
heating technology is going to compete amongst
the renewable energy solutions.</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">Pellet
stoves and then automated pellet boilers were a
huge technological step forward. We believe a
next step may be affordable, automated wood
stoves to maximize the potential of the stove
and minimize its inefficiencies. </div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">That
is why we are holding the <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://forgreenheat.blogspot.com/2014/05/collaborative-stove-design-workshop.html"
target="_blank">Collaborative Stove Design
Workshop</a> at Brookhaven National Lab from <span
class="" tabindex="0">Nov. 4 - 7</span>.
Building off the very successful Wood Stove
Decathlon, we will test, assess and help improve
up to 6 automated biomass heating stoves, who
will be competing for a modest prize. Instead
of a large event open to the public, this will
be an intensive 4 days for 30 stove
professionals to push the envelope of stove
innovation.</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">Aprovecho
is building a 'super-clean' biomass heating
stove entry based on cooking stove technology
that is more advanced than current heating
stoves.</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px"><br>
</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">John
Ackerly</div>
<div
style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13.333333969116211px">
Dean Still</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite">
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