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<body class='hmmessage'><div dir='ltr'><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Kirk
Harris,<o:p></o:p></span><BR><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I am
happy to see that you find the Prime-Stove excellent.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I am not
familiar how the Prime-Stove operates in detail and have only seen it at
the Differ Group premises in Oslo.<o:p></o:p></span><BR><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">About
the patent, I just copied a sentence from their website, to describe the history
of the Prime Stove and Dr. Nurhuda.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"></span><BR><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I am, of
course, not entitled to denie you any permission or approval to name any type
of stove, whatever you like.<o:p></o:p></span><BR><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">But, I
would guess that I am allowed to advice you to play by the book and give credit
to the ones deserving credits.</span><BR><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Names
has never shamed anybody, but lack of references HAS…………………..<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I just
commented the findings by Roberto and could quite easily see the similarity to
the Peko Pe stove (“Kampala - 1994”), that`s all……………<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Method 1,
3 and 4, are “Hot Char” methods and will exclude your “Wonderwerk” from being a
Biochar producing stove.</span></p><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Just like Fan Driven stoves, t</span><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">hey
consume char.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Method
2, are “EXACTLY” like the “Kampala – 1994” ( Ww 6 holes -Kampala 12 holes 2,5 cm below the upper edge),
apart from the adjustable primary inlet.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I guess
you also have heard about the fairy tale by the Danish poet, H. C. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;"> </span>Andersen:<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">“The Emperor`s
New Suit”?<o:p></o:p></span><BR><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Most
people see what they like or are told to see, just a few see the reality…………<o:p></o:p></span><BR><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">Otto<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;">I the
middle part of Norway<o:p></o:p></span><BR><font face="Times New Roman">
</font><BR><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US" style="mso-ansi-language: EN-US;"><o:p></o:p></span>From: kgharris@sonic.net<br>To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:31 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br><br>
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Otto,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your lead on the Prime Stove, Dr.
Nurhuda, and the Differ group.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The Prime stove is an excellent stove and they are
doing wonderful things in Indonesia. This is the type of activity that I
would like my work to support.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The Prime stove is however not a Method 2
stove. It more resembles a Vesto or Peco Pe. The early secondary air
inlets are too low to provide an efficient pilot flame. They were clearly
designed to direct air at the char and show no knowledge of the interaction
of Method 2 type pilot flames with the secondary flame. If the lower
holes were eliminated and replaced with holes directly below (2 to 2.5 cm) the
secondary inlets, then it would be a Method 2 stove. Possibly the stove
would then get a 3.1 turn down ratio instead of a 2.1 turn down ratio.
Please examine my document again to see the difference.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The Prime stove is also not a Method 1 or 4
stove. The secondary air is directed straight in, not down the inner wall
of the reactor.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for bringing up the topic of
patents. I have designated the methods of turn down with numbers rather
than names to avoid any implied thoughts or feelings of ownership on my
part. This is partly in case a conflict comes up with a
patent at some point. I have no desire or intent to violate any patents,
and if such a conflict comes up I will stop any actions which might violate a
patent or do any harm to any business, group, or individual. My intentions
are to improve turn-down capability in TLUD cook stoves and all are welcome to
use or not use anything I come up with.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I can name my test stoves as I please and need not
your permission or approval. Wonderwerk is a name not a nick
name.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Respectfully,</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kirk Harris</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Santa Rosa, CA. USA</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2"></font> </div>
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<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="terra-matricula@hotmail.com" href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">Otto Formo</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b> <a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves Bioenergylist</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:01
AM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD
turn-down</div>
<div><br></div>
<div dir="ltr"><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Kirk Harris, Paul A and Ron
L,</span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">I am not assuming that the Peko
Pe, will pass the ISO IWA low power test as a tier 4 stove, but I find it a
bit odd that your method 2, is describing very much how the Peko Pe used to
operate and now operates, including an adjustable primary air
intake.</span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Robert, saw the similarity for the
lower secondary air inlet in the combustion chamber, just like the old type of
Peko Pe from Uganda in the 1990`s and I noticed the adjustable inlet for
primary air, like in the newest model.</span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><span lang="EN-US"></span><br><span lang="EN-US">In a
micro gasifier unit, like the Peko Pe, you can also easily “adjust” the amount
of fuel to be used for each cooking.</span><br><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Just add fuel to a bit above the
bottom plate and your flame will reach the pot, any how, due to the secondary
inlet and the gasification process. </span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US"> </span><span lang="EN-US">A “Rocket” stove will produce more
or less the same thermal efficiency, but with a higher
PM.</span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><span lang="EN-US">These types of stoves are of
course more efficient than a three stone fire, but the PM is very much the
same as any open fire, apart from emissions from a micro gasifier
unit.</span><br><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">It would help, if a Rocket” stove
was lit from the top, but still the strong draft in that narrow chimney, will
create toxic emissions and PM to flow into the (air) room. <span> </span></span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">I think you should also look into
the Prime cookstoves, invented and patented by Dr. M. Nurhuda, Professor of
Physics, Brawijaya University, Malang, Indonesia, when it comes to lower and
power down the flame.</span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">I guess he would not be “too
happy” to find out that you are calling his PrimeStove –
Wonderwerk…………?</span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">“Your method” 3, by lifting the
char in the combustion chamber, has been declined some time back, considered
to be too complicated. </span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">We just put the remaining char
into a standard charcoal stove, which you will find all over the African
continent, for further simmering. </span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Good luck with your efforts and
tests.</span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">It is very much needed, but
correct and proper references, should be mentioned and not “nick named”,
that`s all.</span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br>
<p class="ecxMsoNoSpacing" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0pt;"><span lang="EN-US">Otto </span></p><font face="Times New Roman"></font><br> <br>
<div>
<hr id="ecxstopSpelling">
From: kgharris@sonic.net<br>To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>Date: Tue,
20 May 2014 11:38:15 -0700<br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD
turn-down<br><br>
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<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'>Otto and
all,</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'></span> </p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'>The Peko Pe is an
incredible stove and the man who created it is even more incredible. I wish I
had met Paal Wendelbo, but I missed out on that privilege. I have met lots of
other really incredible people though.</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'></span> </p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'>If the Peko Pe can
pass the ISO IWA low power tests as a tier 4 stove then I will agree with you.
If not then I will continue my struggles with the Wonderwerk test stoves in
that direction. When I go to Stove Camp at Aprovecho this summer, I want to
see a TLUD with low power tier 4 capabilities, be it a Wonderwerk stove or
someone else’s stove. Come on TLUD folks, we're getting our butts kicked by
the rocket people here.</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'></span> </p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'>Kirk
Harris</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p>
<p class="ecxMsoNormal" style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;'>Santa Rosa, CA.
USA</span><span style="font-size: 12pt;"></span></p></font></div>
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<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="background: rgb(228, 228, 228); font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>From:</b>
<a title="terra-matricula@hotmail.com" href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">Otto Formo</a> </div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>To:</b>
<a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves Bioenergylist</a>
</div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Sent:</b>
Monday, May 19, 2014 11:56 PM</div>
<div style="font: 10pt/normal arial; font-size-adjust: none; font-stretch: normal;"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down</div>
<div><br></div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear Roberto,<br> <br>I very much agree with
you.<br> <br>The Kirk Harris "stove", looks very much familiar and
alike the way the Peko Pe has solved this issues and to me it is a REAL
wonderwerk, so why call it with a nick name: <br>Wonderwerk TLUD
??<br> <br>This issues can be and are partly solved by the Peko Pe
consept - "Problem no", Acoli tribe, Northern Uganda 1994
-95.<br> <br>Otto<br> <br>
<div>
<hr id="ecxstopSpelling">
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:38:41 +0900<br>From:
crispinpigott@outlook.com<br>To: stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>Subject:
Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br><br>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>Dear
Roberto</div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'><br></div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>I
agree with your analysis. There is a lot of merit in keeping the secondary
flame in close proximity to the top of the fuel bed. The most important is
that the secondary flame is harder to put out with a slight breeze (because
it relights). The second is that when the primary air is turned down to
control the power, the secondary flame is able to remain hot enough to stay
alight. Combined with external, down-drafting secondary air preheating (not
like the Peko Pe) one can maintain the secondary air feed ration under
different primary air conditions. </div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'><br></div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>Read
and heed! TLUD's are not succeeding in meeting the turndown ratios required
by ordinary cooking. To burn clean at different burn rates, whatever the
fuel, you have to control both the primary and secondary air
flows. </div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'><br></div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>While
a 'double controller' can work, turning the secondary air down at exactly
the same time as the primary leads to a 2-3 minute period of very high PM
and or CO and VOC's because of the retained heat in the fuel bed and stove
body. This is worse if the combustion chamber is ceramic or cast
iron. </div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'><br></div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>If
the secondary air feed it an automatic, buoyancy-driven ýsupply, it will
draw in additional air as required during the cooling-off period. This
explains the strange layout of the air supply in a Vesto Stove which tried
to address the problems inherent in David Hancock's (very advanced at the
time) 1984 Tsotso Stove (which is still in production). </div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'><br></div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>Regards </div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>Crispin
in Seoul enjoying spring </div>
<div style='width: 100%; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'><br></div>
<div style='color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, "Slate Pro", sans-serif; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);'>BBM
2B567C3</div>
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<div><b>From: </b>Roberto Poehlmann</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:28</div>
<div><b>To: </b>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</div>
<div><b>Reply To: </b>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD
turn-down</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table>
<div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Kirk,</div>
<div>this is a very interesting document, thanks to share it.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>The method 2 is like the 12 holes configuration of the Peko Pe design
in page 9 of the following document:</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><a href="http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a" target="_blank">http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a</a><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Maybe this is the reason that the Peko Pe stove don't need an internal
chimney to operate. This 12 holes function also like 12 pilot flames,
maintaining the secondary flame hot.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>I have replicated this design of the Peko Pe, and in operation, you can
see the pilot flames attached to the 12 holes.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Maybe the 4 holes concept in the middle of the combustion chamber can
also helps to maintain a slow power consumption. When the pyrolysis front
reach the middle of the combustion chamber, this "primary air" start to
combust the charcoal, adding heat to also support the flame.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div>Roberto Poehlmann</div>
<div>Valdivia Chile.</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div>"</div><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">All,</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Dr. Ron Larson, Dr.
Paul Anderson and I have been working on the problem of lack of turn-down in
natural draft TLUD cook stoves. We have found considerable success.
Attached is a document introducing the results of our labors.
All information is in the public domain.</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">K Harris</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Santa Rosa, CA.
USA</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">-------------- next
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was scrubbed...</span><br style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="font-family: arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Name: Harris TLUD
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