<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>Hi Kirk,<br></div>Thanks for sharing this valuable information. You have put a lot of thought and time into this. I find your insights helpful.<br><br></div>Otto, I do not check in on the stove list very often any more. Your pettiness reminded me why.<br>
<br><br></div><div>cheers!<br></div><div>Art Donnelly<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, May 23, 2014 at 12:00 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Natural draft TLUD turn-down (kgharris)<br>
2. Re: Natural draft TLUD turn-down (Otto Formo)<br>
3. Re: Natural draft TLUD turn-down (Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:31 -0700<br>
From: "kgharris" <<a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a>><br>
To: "Discussion of biomass cooking stoves"<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
Message-ID: <F08F958640294418A6E90AB95F346C6D@phyllisPC><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256"<br>
<br>
Otto,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your lead on the Prime Stove, Dr. Nurhuda, and the Differ group.<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is an excellent stove and they are doing wonderful things in Indonesia. This is the type of activity that I would like my work to support.<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is however not a Method 2 stove. It more resembles a Vesto or Peco Pe. The early secondary air inlets are too low to provide an efficient pilot flame. They were clearly designed to direct air at the char and show no knowledge of the interaction of Method 2 type pilot flames with the secondary flame. If the lower holes were eliminated and replaced with holes directly below (2 to 2.5 cm) the secondary inlets, then it would be a Method 2 stove. Possibly the stove would then get a 3.1 turn down ratio instead of a 2.1 turn down ratio. Please examine my document again to see the difference.<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is also not a Method 1 or 4 stove. The secondary air is directed straight in, not down the inner wall of the reactor.<br>
<br>
Thank you for bringing up the topic of patents. I have designated the methods of turn down with numbers rather than names to avoid any implied thoughts or feelings of ownership on my part. This is partly in case a conflict comes up with a patent at some point. I have no desire or intent to violate any patents, and if such a conflict comes up I will stop any actions which might violate a patent or do any harm to any business, group, or individual. My intentions are to improve turn-down capability in TLUD cook stoves and all are welcome to use or not use anything I come up with.<br>
<br>
I can name my test stoves as I please and need not your permission or approval. Wonderwerk is a name not a nick name.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. USA<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: Otto Formo<br>
To: Stoves Bioenergylist<br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:01 AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris, Paul A and Ron L,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am not assuming that the Peko Pe, will pass the ISO IWA low power test as a tier 4 stove, but I find it a bit odd that your method 2, is describing very much how the Peko Pe used to operate and now operates, including an adjustable primary air intake.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Robert, saw the similarity for the lower secondary air inlet in the combustion chamber, just like the old type of Peko Pe from Uganda in the 1990`s and I noticed the adjustable inlet for primary air, like in the newest model.<br>
<br>
<br>
In a micro gasifier unit, like the Peko Pe, you can also easily ?adjust? the amount of fuel to be used for each cooking.<br>
<br>
<br>
Just add fuel to a bit above the bottom plate and your flame will reach the pot, any how, due to the secondary inlet and the gasification process.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A ?Rocket? stove will produce more or less the same thermal efficiency, but with a higher PM.<br>
<br>
These types of stoves are of course more efficient than a three stone fire, but the PM is very much the same as any open fire, apart from emissions from a micro gasifier unit.<br>
<br>
<br>
It would help, if a Rocket? stove was lit from the top, but still the strong draft in that narrow chimney, will create toxic emissions and PM to flow into the (air) room.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I think you should also look into the Prime cookstoves, invented and patented by Dr. M. Nurhuda, Professor of Physics, Brawijaya University, Malang, Indonesia, when it comes to lower and power down the flame.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I guess he would not be ?too happy? to find out that you are calling his PrimeStove ? Wonderwerk?????<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
?Your method? 3, by lifting the char in the combustion chamber, has been declined some time back, considered to be too complicated.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We just put the remaining char into a standard charcoal stove, which you will find all over the African continent, for further simmering.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Good luck with your efforts and tests.<br>
<br>
It is very much needed, but correct and proper references, should be mentioned and not ?nick named?, that`s all.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
From: <a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 11:38:15 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto and all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Peko Pe is an incredible stove and the man who created it is even more incredible. I wish I had met Paal Wendelbo, but I missed out on that privilege. I have met lots of other really incredible people though.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If the Peko Pe can pass the ISO IWA low power tests as a tier 4 stove then I will agree with you. If not then I will continue my struggles with the Wonderwerk test stoves in that direction. When I go to Stove Camp at Aprovecho this summer, I want to see a TLUD with low power tier 4 capabilities, be it a Wonderwerk stove or someone else?s stove. Come on TLUD folks, we're getting our butts kicked by the rocket people here.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris<br>
<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. USA<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: Otto Formo<br>
To: Stoves Bioenergylist<br>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 11:56 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Roberto,<br>
<br>
I very much agree with you.<br>
<br>
The Kirk Harris "stove", looks very much familiar and alike the way the Peko Pe has solved this issues and to me it is a REAL wonderwerk, so why call it with a nick name:<br>
Wonderwerk TLUD ??<br>
<br>
This issues can be and are partly solved by the Peko Pe consept - "Problem no", Acoli tribe, Northern Uganda 1994 -95.<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:38:41 +0900<br>
From: <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
Dear Roberto<br>
I agree with your analysis. There is a lot of merit in keeping the secondary flame in close proximity to the top of the fuel bed. The most important is that the secondary flame is harder to put out with a slight breeze (because it relights). The second is that when the primary air is turned down to control the power, the secondary flame is able to remain hot enough to stay alight. Combined with external, down-drafting secondary air preheating (not like the Peko Pe) one can maintain the secondary air feed ration under different primary air conditions.<br>
Read and heed! TLUD's are not succeeding in meeting the turndown ratios required by ordinary cooking. To burn clean at different burn rates, whatever the fuel, you have to control both the primary and secondary air flows.<br>
While a 'double controller' can work, turning the secondary air down at exactly the same time as the primary leads to a 2-3 minute period of very high PM and or CO and VOC's because of the retained heat in the fuel bed and stove body. This is worse if the combustion chamber is ceramic or cast iron.<br>
If the secondary air feed it an automatic, buoyancy-driven ?supply, it will draw in additional air as required during the cooling-off period. This explains the strange layout of the air supply in a Vesto Stove which tried to address the problems inherent in David Hancock's (very advanced at the time) 1984 Tsotso Stove (which is still in production).<br>
Regards Crispin in Seoul enjoying spring<br>
<br>
BBM 2B567C3<br>
From: Roberto Poehlmann<br>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:28<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk,<br>
this is a very interesting document, thanks to share it.<br>
<br>
<br>
The method 2 is like the 12 holes configuration of the Peko Pe design in page 9 of the following document:<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a" target="_blank">http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe this is the reason that the Peko Pe stove don't need an internal chimney to operate. This 12 holes function also like 12 pilot flames, maintaining the secondary flame hot.<br>
<br>
<br>
I have replicated this design of the Peko Pe, and in operation, you can see the pilot flames attached to the 12 holes.<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe the 4 holes concept in the middle of the combustion chamber can also helps to maintain a slow power consumption. When the pyrolysis front reach the middle of the combustion chamber, this "primary air" start to combust the charcoal, adding heat to also support the flame.<br>
<br>
<br>
Roberto Poehlmann<br>
Valdivia Chile.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
"<br>
All,<br>
<br>
Dr. Ron Larson, Dr. Paul Anderson and I have been working on the problem of lack of turn-down in natural draft TLUD cook stoves. We have found considerable success. Attached is a document introducing the results of our labors. All information is in the public domain.<br>
<br>
K Harris<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. USA<br>
<br>
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<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Fri, 23 May 2014 10:31:40 +0200<br>
From: Otto Formo <<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
To: Stoves Bioenergylist <<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
Message-ID: <DUB111-W12328D4A3C0B828758F5AFEEA3E0@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1256"<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk<br>
Harris,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am<br>
happy to see that you find the Prime-Stove excellent.<br>
<br>
I am not<br>
familiar how the Prime-Stove operates in detail and have only seen it at<br>
the Differ Group premises in Oslo.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
About<br>
the patent, I just copied a sentence from their website, to describe the history<br>
of the Prime Stove and Dr. Nurhuda.<br>
<br>
<br>
I am, of<br>
course, not entitled to denie you any permission or approval to name any type<br>
of stove, whatever you like.<br>
<br>
<br>
But, I<br>
would guess that I am allowed to advice you to play by the book and give credit<br>
to the ones deserving credits.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Names<br>
has never shamed anybody, but lack of references HAS???????..<br>
<br>
<br>
I just<br>
commented the findings by Roberto and could quite easily see the similarity to<br>
the Peko Pe stove (?Kampala - 1994?), that`s all?????<br>
<br>
<br>
Method 1,<br>
3 and 4, are ?Hot Char? methods and will exclude your ?Wonderwerk? from being a<br>
Biochar producing stove.Just like Fan Driven stoves, they<br>
consume char.<br>
<br>
<br>
Method<br>
2, are ?EXACTLY? like the ?Kampala ? 1994? ( Ww 6 holes -Kampala 12 holes 2,5 cm below the upper edge),<br>
apart from the adjustable primary inlet.<br>
<br>
<br>
I guess<br>
you also have heard about the fairy tale by the Danish poet, H. C. Andersen:<br>
<br>
?The Emperor`s<br>
New Suit??<br>
<br>
<br>
Most<br>
people see what they like or are told to see, just a few see the reality????<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
I the<br>
middle part of Norway<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 14:47:31 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto,<br>
<br>
Thank you for your lead on the Prime Stove, Dr.<br>
Nurhuda, and the Differ group.<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is an excellent stove and they are<br>
doing wonderful things in Indonesia. This is the type of activity that I<br>
would like my work to support.<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is however not a Method 2<br>
stove. It more resembles a Vesto or Peco Pe. The early secondary air<br>
inlets are too low to provide an efficient pilot flame. They were clearly<br>
designed to direct air at the char and show no knowledge of the interaction<br>
of Method 2 type pilot flames with the secondary flame. If the lower<br>
holes were eliminated and replaced with holes directly below (2 to 2.5 cm) the<br>
secondary inlets, then it would be a Method 2 stove. Possibly the stove<br>
would then get a 3.1 turn down ratio instead of a 2.1 turn down ratio.<br>
Please examine my document again to see the difference.<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is also not a Method 1 or 4<br>
stove. The secondary air is directed straight in, not down the inner wall<br>
of the reactor.<br>
<br>
Thank you for bringing up the topic of<br>
patents. I have designated the methods of turn down with numbers rather<br>
than names to avoid any implied thoughts or feelings of ownership on my<br>
part. This is partly in case a conflict comes up with a<br>
patent at some point. I have no desire or intent to violate any patents,<br>
and if such a conflict comes up I will stop any actions which might violate a<br>
patent or do any harm to any business, group, or individual. My intentions<br>
are to improve turn-down capability in TLUD cook stoves and all are welcome to<br>
use or not use anything I come up with.<br>
<br>
I can name my test stoves as I please and need not<br>
your permission or approval. Wonderwerk is a name not a nick<br>
name.<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. USA<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From:<br>
Otto Formo<br>
To: Stoves Bioenergylist<br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:01<br>
AM<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD<br>
turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris, Paul A and Ron<br>
L,<br>
<br>
I am not assuming that the Peko<br>
Pe, will pass the ISO IWA low power test as a tier 4 stove, but I find it a<br>
bit odd that your method 2, is describing very much how the Peko Pe used to<br>
operate and now operates, including an adjustable primary air<br>
intake.<br>
<br>
Robert, saw the similarity for the<br>
lower secondary air inlet in the combustion chamber, just like the old type of<br>
Peko Pe from Uganda in the 1990`s and I noticed the adjustable inlet for<br>
primary air, like in the newest model.<br>
In a<br>
micro gasifier unit, like the Peko Pe, you can also easily ?adjust? the amount<br>
of fuel to be used for each cooking.<br>
<br>
<br>
Just add fuel to a bit above the<br>
bottom plate and your flame will reach the pot, any how, due to the secondary<br>
inlet and the gasification process.<br>
<br>
A ?Rocket? stove will produce more<br>
or less the same thermal efficiency, but with a higher<br>
PM.These types of stoves are of<br>
course more efficient than a three stone fire, but the PM is very much the<br>
same as any open fire, apart from emissions from a micro gasifier<br>
unit.<br>
<br>
<br>
It would help, if a Rocket? stove<br>
was lit from the top, but still the strong draft in that narrow chimney, will<br>
create toxic emissions and PM to flow into the (air) room.<br>
<br>
I think you should also look into<br>
the Prime cookstoves, invented and patented by Dr. M. Nurhuda, Professor of<br>
Physics, Brawijaya University, Malang, Indonesia, when it comes to lower and<br>
power down the flame.<br>
<br>
I guess he would not be ?too<br>
happy? to find out that you are calling his PrimeStove ?<br>
Wonderwerk?????<br>
<br>
?Your method? 3, by lifting the<br>
char in the combustion chamber, has been declined some time back, considered<br>
to be too complicated.<br>
<br>
We just put the remaining char<br>
into a standard charcoal stove, which you will find all over the African<br>
continent, for further simmering.<br>
<br>
Good luck with your efforts and<br>
tests.<br>
It is very much needed, but<br>
correct and proper references, should be mentioned and not ?nick named?,<br>
that`s all.<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Date: Tue,<br>
20 May 2014 11:38:15 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD<br>
turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto and<br>
all,<br>
<br>
The Peko Pe is an<br>
incredible stove and the man who created it is even more incredible. I wish I<br>
had met Paal Wendelbo, but I missed out on that privilege. I have met lots of<br>
other really incredible people though.<br>
<br>
If the Peko Pe can<br>
pass the ISO IWA low power tests as a tier 4 stove then I will agree with you.<br>
If not then I will continue my struggles with the Wonderwerk test stoves in<br>
that direction. When I go to Stove Camp at Aprovecho this summer, I want to<br>
see a TLUD with low power tier 4 capabilities, be it a Wonderwerk stove or<br>
someone else?s stove. Come on TLUD folks, we're getting our butts kicked by<br>
the rocket people here.<br>
<br>
Kirk<br>
Harris<br>
Santa Rosa, CA.<br>
USA<br>
<br>
-----<br>
Original Message -----<br>
From:<br>
Otto Formo<br>
To:<br>
Stoves Bioenergylist<br>
<br>
Sent:<br>
Monday, May 19, 2014 11:56 PM<br>
Subject:<br>
Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Roberto,<br>
<br>
I very much agree with<br>
you.<br>
<br>
The Kirk Harris "stove", looks very much familiar and<br>
alike the way the Peko Pe has solved this issues and to me it is a REAL<br>
wonderwerk, so why call it with a nick name:<br>
Wonderwerk TLUD<br>
??<br>
<br>
This issues can be and are partly solved by the Peko Pe<br>
consept - "Problem no", Acoli tribe, Northern Uganda 1994<br>
-95.<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:38:41 +0900<br>
From:<br>
<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject:<br>
Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear<br>
Roberto<br>
<br>
<br>
I<br>
agree with your analysis. There is a lot of merit in keeping the secondary<br>
flame in close proximity to the top of the fuel bed. The most important is<br>
that the secondary flame is harder to put out with a slight breeze (because<br>
it relights). The second is that when the primary air is turned down to<br>
control the power, the secondary flame is able to remain hot enough to stay<br>
alight. Combined with external, down-drafting secondary air preheating (not<br>
like the Peko Pe) one can maintain the secondary air feed ration under<br>
different primary air conditions.<br>
<br>
<br>
Read<br>
and heed! TLUD's are not succeeding in meeting the turndown ratios required<br>
by ordinary cooking. To burn clean at different burn rates, whatever the<br>
fuel, you have to control both the primary and secondary air<br>
flows.<br>
<br>
<br>
While<br>
a 'double controller' can work, turning the secondary air down at exactly<br>
the same time as the primary leads to a 2-3 minute period of very high PM<br>
and or CO and VOC's because of the retained heat in the fuel bed and stove<br>
body. This is worse if the combustion chamber is ceramic or cast<br>
iron.<br>
<br>
<br>
If<br>
the secondary air feed it an automatic, buoyancy-driven ?supply, it will<br>
draw in additional air as required during the cooling-off period. This<br>
explains the strange layout of the air supply in a Vesto Stove which tried<br>
to address the problems inherent in David Hancock's (very advanced at the<br>
time) 1984 Tsotso Stove (which is still in production).<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
Crispin<br>
in Seoul enjoying spring<br>
<br>
<br>
BBM<br>
2B567C3<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Roberto Poehlmann<br>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:28<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD<br>
turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk,<br>
this is a very interesting document, thanks to share it.<br>
<br>
<br>
The method 2 is like the 12 holes configuration of the Peko Pe design<br>
in page 9 of the following document:<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a" target="_blank">http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe this is the reason that the Peko Pe stove don't need an internal<br>
chimney to operate. This 12 holes function also like 12 pilot flames,<br>
maintaining the secondary flame hot.<br>
<br>
<br>
I have replicated this design of the Peko Pe, and in operation, you can<br>
see the pilot flames attached to the 12 holes.<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe the 4 holes concept in the middle of the combustion chamber can<br>
also helps to maintain a slow power consumption. When the pyrolysis front<br>
reach the middle of the combustion chamber, this "primary air" start to<br>
combust the charcoal, adding heat to also support the flame.<br>
<br>
<br>
Roberto Poehlmann<br>
Valdivia Chile.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
"All,Dr. Ron Larson, Dr.<br>
Paul Anderson and I have been working on the problem of lack of turn-down in<br>
natural draft TLUD cook stoves. We have found considerable success.<br>
Attached is a document introducing the results of our labors.<br>
All information is in the public domain.K HarrisSanta Rosa, CA.<br>
USA-------------- next<br>
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<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Thu, 22 May 2014 18:38:51 -0400<br>
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
Message-ID: <COL401-EAS35BB2563E0A1344D2E7F36B13E0@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1255"<br>
<br>
Dear Kirk<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I have looked through the messages below and did not find what you are<br>
calling ?methods 1-4?.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Can you please copy to me whatever it was that is the source of the<br>
comments? I would like to understand what you are referring to with these<br>
different methods.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The layout and function as you describe do not apply to the Vesto so I was<br>
wondering what you mean by a ?pilot flame?. The Vesto dies have a pilot<br>
flame with air provided by three 8mm holes quite low in the chamber, well<br>
below the secondary air inlets. This is relevant when the bottom of the<br>
combustion chamber is blocked in order to run in a TLUD gasification mode.<br>
Normally that is blocked with a circle of newspaper with a few knife slits<br>
in it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The pilot flame ensures that wood can be charcoaled and burned controllably,<br>
or pellets (packed bed function) can be pyrolysed and then the char burned.<br>
This function enables the user to load quite a lot of fuel into the stove<br>
but burn it slowly ? far slower than an ?open fire? would be able to.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you for your lead on the Prime Stove, Dr. Nurhuda, and the Differ<br>
group.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is an excellent stove and they are doing wonderful things in<br>
Indonesia. This is the type of activity that I would like my work to<br>
support.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is however not a Method 2 stove. It more resembles a Vesto<br>
or Peco Pe. The early secondary air inlets are too low to provide an<br>
efficient pilot flame. They were clearly designed to direct air at the char<br>
and show no knowledge of the interaction of Method 2 type pilot flames with<br>
the secondary flame. If the lower holes were eliminated and replaced with<br>
holes directly below (2 to 2.5 cm) the secondary inlets, then it would be a<br>
Method 2 stove. Possibly the stove would then get a 3.1 turn down ratio<br>
instead of a 2.1 turn down ratio. Please examine my document again to see<br>
the difference.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Prime stove is also not a Method 1 or 4 stove. The secondary air is<br>
directed straight in, not down the inner wall of the reactor.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thank you for bringing up the topic of patents. I have designated the<br>
methods of turn down with numbers rather than names to avoid any implied<br>
thoughts or feelings of ownership on my part. This is partly in case a<br>
conflict comes up with a patent at some point. I have no desire or intent<br>
to violate any patents, and if such a conflict comes up I will stop any<br>
actions which might violate a patent or do any harm to any business, group,<br>
or individual. My intentions are to improve turn-down capability in TLUD<br>
cook stoves and all are welcome to use or not use anything I come up with.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I can name my test stoves as I please and need not your permission or<br>
approval. Wonderwerk is a name not a nick name.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Respectfully,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris<br>
<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. USA<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
<br>
From: Otto Formo <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<br>
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 2:01 AM<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris, Paul A and Ron L,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I am not assuming that the Peko Pe, will pass the ISO IWA low power test as<br>
a tier 4 stove, but I find it a bit odd that your method 2, is describing<br>
very much how the Peko Pe used to operate and now operates, including an<br>
adjustable primary air intake.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Robert, saw the similarity for the lower secondary air inlet in the<br>
combustion chamber, just like the old type of Peko Pe from Uganda in the<br>
1990`s and I noticed the adjustable inlet for primary air, like in the<br>
newest model.<br>
<br>
<br>
In a micro gasifier unit, like the Peko Pe, you can also easily ?adjust? the<br>
amount of fuel to be used for each cooking.<br>
<br>
Just add fuel to a bit above the bottom plate and your flame will reach the<br>
pot, any how, due to the secondary inlet and the gasification process.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
A ?Rocket? stove will produce more or less the same thermal efficiency, but<br>
with a higher PM.<br>
<br>
These types of stoves are of course more efficient than a three stone fire,<br>
but the PM is very much the same as any open fire, apart from emissions from<br>
a micro gasifier unit.<br>
<br>
It would help, if a Rocket? stove was lit from the top, but still the strong<br>
draft in that narrow chimney, will create toxic emissions and PM to flow<br>
into the (air) room.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I think you should also look into the Prime cookstoves, invented and<br>
patented by Dr. M. Nurhuda, Professor of Physics, Brawijaya University,<br>
Malang, Indonesia, when it comes to lower and power down the flame.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I guess he would not be ?too happy? to find out that you are calling his<br>
PrimeStove ? Wonderwerk?????<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
?Your method? 3, by lifting the char in the combustion chamber, has been<br>
declined some time back, considered to be too complicated.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
We just put the remaining char into a standard charcoal stove, which you<br>
will find all over the African continent, for further simmering.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Good luck with your efforts and tests.<br>
<br>
It is very much needed, but correct and proper references, should be<br>
mentioned and not ?nick named?, that`s all.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_____<br>
<br>
<br>
From: <a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 11:38:15 -0700<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
Otto and all,<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The Peko Pe is an incredible stove and the man who created it is even more<br>
incredible. I wish I had met Paal Wendelbo, but I missed out on that<br>
privilege. I have met lots of other really incredible people though.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If the Peko Pe can pass the ISO IWA low power tests as a tier 4 stove then I<br>
will agree with you. If not then I will continue my struggles with the<br>
Wonderwerk test stoves in that direction. When I go to Stove Camp at<br>
Aprovecho this summer, I want to see a TLUD with low power tier 4<br>
capabilities, be it a Wonderwerk stove or someone else?s stove. Come on TLUD<br>
folks, we're getting our butts kicked by the rocket people here.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk Harris<br>
<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. USA<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
<br>
From: Otto Formo <mailto:<a href="mailto:terra-matricula@hotmail.com">terra-matricula@hotmail.com</a>><br>
<br>
To: Stoves Bioenergylist <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<br>
Sent: Monday, May 19, 2014 11:56 PM<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Dear Roberto,<br>
<br>
I very much agree with you.<br>
<br>
The Kirk Harris "stove", looks very much familiar and alike the way the Peko<br>
Pe has solved this issues and to me it is a REAL wonderwerk, so why call it<br>
with a nick name:<br>
Wonderwerk TLUD ??<br>
<br>
This issues can be and are partly solved by the Peko Pe consept - "Problem<br>
no", Acoli tribe, Northern Uganda 1994 -95.<br>
<br>
Otto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
_____<br>
<br>
<br>
Date: Tue, 20 May 2014 08:38:41 +0900<br>
From: <a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
Dear Roberto<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I agree with your analysis. There is a lot of merit in keeping the secondary<br>
flame in close proximity to the top of the fuel bed. The most important is<br>
that the secondary flame is harder to put out with a slight breeze (because<br>
it relights). The second is that when the primary air is turned down to<br>
control the power, the secondary flame is able to remain hot enough to stay<br>
alight. Combined with external, down-drafting secondary air preheating (not<br>
like the Peko Pe) one can maintain the secondary air feed ration under<br>
different primary air conditions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Read and heed! TLUD's are not succeeding in meeting the turndown ratios<br>
required by ordinary cooking. To burn clean at different burn rates,<br>
whatever the fuel, you have to control both the primary and secondary air<br>
flows.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
While a 'double controller' can work, turning the secondary air down at<br>
exactly the same time as the primary leads to a 2-3 minute period of very<br>
high PM and or CO and VOC's because of the retained heat in the fuel bed and<br>
stove body. This is worse if the combustion chamber is ceramic or cast iron.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
If the secondary air feed it an automatic, buoyancy-driven ?supply, it will<br>
draw in additional air as required during the cooling-off period. This<br>
explains the strange layout of the air supply in a Vesto Stove which tried<br>
to address the problems inherent in David Hancock's (very advanced at the<br>
time) 1984 Tsotso Stove (which is still in production).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Crispin in Seoul enjoying spring<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
BBM 2B567C3<br>
<br>
<br>
From: Roberto Poehlmann<br>
<br>
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 02:28<br>
<br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <mailto:<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
<br>
<br>
Reply To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Natural draft TLUD turn-down<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Kirk,<br>
<br>
this is a very interesting document, thanks to share it.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
The method 2 is like the 12 holes configuration of the Peko Pe design in<br>
page 9 of the following document:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<a href="http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.
pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a" target="_blank">http://www.adansonia-consulting.ch/document/Grass%20Cooker%20handbook_print.<br>
pdf?PHPSESSID=3d064accc3efbdafd3b1133a13129f9a</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe this is the reason that the Peko Pe stove don't need an internal<br>
chimney to operate. This 12 holes function also like 12 pilot flames,<br>
maintaining the secondary flame hot.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
I have replicated this design of the Peko Pe, and in operation, you can see<br>
the pilot flames attached to the 12 holes.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Maybe the 4 holes concept in the middle of the combustion chamber can also<br>
helps to maintain a slow power consumption. When the pyrolysis front reach<br>
the middle of the combustion chamber, this "primary air" start to combust<br>
the charcoal, adding heat to also support the flame.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Roberto Poehlmann<br>
<br>
Valdivia Chile.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
"<br>
<br>
All,<br>
<br>
Dr. Ron Larson, Dr. Paul Anderson and I have been working on the problem of<br>
lack of turn-down in natural draft TLUD cook stoves. We have found<br>
considerable success. Attached is a document introducing the results of our<br>
labors. All information is in the public domain.<br>
<br>
K Harris<br>
Santa Rosa, CA. USA<br>
<br>
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End of Stoves Digest, Vol 45, Issue 29<br>
**************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br>Art Donnelly<br>President SeaChar.Org<br>US Director, The Farm Stove Project<br>Proyecto Estufa Finca<br><a href="http://email2.globalgiving.org/wf/click?c=1Oy%2FmZbgIyjS5WI580KXwShvfKBcF2eaJvtN7Pi6p7Jl%2FiR4938EMMCBwY%2FuYALeA%2BQYUWN4RpvnxBsBC7e2%2BGIHcONTozBmvsUU5LTL%2FTNk4Q3vxE%2BKdXTV2cxIsFplSPh%2F9nMG3bQMQf4bz9ZK9SHMy46Z8OPLAtMAnPG9SKkPuLCWvofBTLC%2BImqax%2BZTkkF2RvDri5UdgH19NHjHOBj5WMUrS4L62Z2xxUJbBsJdDUOfeifheNFXH546Xm0yul4P2stm%2FTUOJxYnI0nFjXEaYfzxDSc%2FwgqVkR1t0USDHk30%2Fgt9UpDpyzLj37HWtnNQ0q8Jh1gZCkB4Y1Fgbg394gYFkyNqFN4MchxO2Js%3D&rp=wrhiOr2wAxUyDMDlMSqbOkKa0FpPoiCSHffb%2ByfHGClRxIFjEIrUDwAF%2BFD%2BpAPuvam9BDwvSMcadhFv7aFwKoyAXYrFk00%2B92xPIeMHXaTDJ3x0VIj6ZYwjm1win65o&up=YDTqBOjidbCUo%2Far1oAtZjp5ji73zPEvmoO14mevuXzIDUdb6Ac9W13SPOXmzL5NflZkH0HxLp0v4dT9UwEHDV0wSZ1qusv09bIKkUliWs4%3D&u=LHuflw_1TAib_lgCu2JvQw%2Fh0" target="_blank"></a><br>
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