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Stovers,<br>
<br>
Sorry for duplicate copies to some, but messages sent to the Stoves
Listserv are NOT distributed when there is a long (more than 5 I
think) other addressees. So I am sending this message (plus
Crispin's original comments) separately to the Stoves Listserv.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<div class="moz-forward-container"><br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<br>
<br>
-------- Original Message --------
<table class="moz-email-headers-table" cellpadding="0"
cellspacing="0" border="0">
<tbody>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Subject:
</th>
<td>Re: Up-date</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">Date: </th>
<td>Wed, 28 May 2014 12:02:56 -0500</td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">From: </th>
<td>Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a></td>
</tr>
<tr>
<th align="RIGHT" nowrap="nowrap" valign="BASELINE">To: </th>
<td>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com"><crispinpigott@outlook.com></a>, 'Inversiones Falcon'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:invfalcones53@yahoo.com"><invfalcones53@yahoo.com></a>, 'Harry Ha'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:harryha@sympatico.ca"><harryha@sympatico.ca></a>, 'Thong - Haiti EmailUser
Ameripham' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:ameripham@click1.net"><ameripham@click1.net></a>, 'Peter Schild -
El Salvador' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:peter.schild.mittelamerika@gmail.com"><peter.schild.mittelamerika@gmail.com></a>,
'Bob Fairchild' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:solarbobky@yahoo.com"><solarbobky@yahoo.com></a>,
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:art.donnelly@seachar.org">art.donnelly@seachar.org</a>, 'Jon Anderson'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:jonnygms@gmail.com"><jonnygms@gmail.com></a>, 'CHRISTA ROTH'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:christa-roth@foodandfuel.info"><christa-roth@foodandfuel.info></a>, 'Biochar Yahoo
Group' <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com"><biochar@yahoogroups.com></a>, "'Ronal W.
Larson'" <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net"><rongretlarson@comcast.net></a>, 'Tom Miles'
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:tmiles@trmiles.com"><tmiles@trmiles.com></a>, Doc Anderson
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>, Kirk Harris
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net"><kgharris@sonic.net></a>, Julien Winter - Canada -
Cobourg ON <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com"><winter.julien@gmail.com></a></td>
</tr>
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<br>
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Crispin,<br>
<br>
Thank you for the very useful comments. Gus and others
(including myself) will be exploring how to refine the TLUD fire
for the specific configuration of the T-Plancha stove by Gus.
All readers should note that the changes are all essentially
below the "frame" of the stove, which means that the changes can
be made to the heat generation (combustion) component without
necessitating changes to the cooking body of the stove. And
because the T-Plancha is at at height for stand-up cooking,
there is plenty of vertical space for making the changes.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 5/27/2014 10:22 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Dear
Gus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Many
thanks for bring this product to my attention by video. I
will provide some comments because there are a couple of
design issues that you can easily address.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">When
the flame is first started in the stove (the canister is
put into place) it can be seen that the flames emerging
from the gasifier are ‘lazy’ and seeking oxygen. It is
therefore a ‘diffusion flame’, short of air and the gases
cannot burn to completion because there is no air supplied
to them at the point where they exit the lower chamber
through the ‘concentrator disk’. The gas stream is only
burning on the outside. Not good.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">There
is a ring with secondary air holes in it above the gas
entrance however they are so far from the flame they are
unable to penetrate the gas stream (at all) resulting,
even far into the burn, in a flame that is running
underneath the plancha still looking for air. The air is
there, but not mixed with the gases. All the time they
running under the plate, they are cooling off, making PM
and CO. Not good. Good clean burning does not come from
flames running under the plate – it comes from burning the
gases to completion in a low excess air environment. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">This
diffusion flame problem is very common in simple gasifiers
because not enough attention has been paid to getting the
produced gas burned to completion before the heat is
applied to the working surface. In short, a flame running
alongside a pot or under a plancha is a no-no. It has not
finished burning yet but it is prematurely being asked to
perform work. The flame can <i>only</i> be burned really
well, to completion, if there is no metal or ceramic
object in contact with it. That is best accomplished over
as short as distance as possible.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">If
you look at the flames coming out of an LPG stove they are
small, short and intense. The reason is the gas is
well-mixed with air in the right proportion, even though
all the mixing is taking place outside the gas head. There
are no ‘normal’ gas stoves with long, lazy flames reaching
into the air 5 or 10 inches trying to find oxygen. They
would fail the CO benchmarks if they did.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Many
of the elements of your system are really good, however
the critical issue of the final burner needs to be
addressed. I suggest that you replace the removable
concentrator disk, just as an experiment, with two things:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Put
the concentrator disk <i>inside</i> the fuel chamber down
perhaps 20 or 25mm so the function of homogenising the gas
is performed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Put
a large central disk held in position by 2 or three metal
bars where the concentrator disk currently sits. Make it
about 30 mm smaller in diameter than the secondary air
entrance cylinder. This will create a 15mm wide gap
between the disk and the se4condary air holes forcing the
gases out to the edge where the secondary air enters. The
disk should be <i>below</i> the secondary air holes. The
idea is to get the gases to mix well with secondary air at
the entrance holes ‘by force’. There is draft available
from the chimney so the air should be pulled in well. The
flames cannot be seen if the top is opened as that breaks
the draft, so perhaps make a spy-hole in the top surface
to see what the flames look like. Cover it with a piece of
glass so you can get your eye close to the hole. Wear
glasses.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The
result should be a number of inward-pointing flames
surrounding each of the streams of incoming secondary air,
all flames pushing towards the centre just above the
central disk. This should create a number of much smaller
and more intense flames. If you have the number of holes
right, and the size right, and the shape right, there will
be complete combustion without high excess air (something
that can only be tested with a combustion analyser). <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">The
flamelets, we can call them, should be fairly low to the
central disk, then rise centrally towards the pot or
plancha, then turn outwards radially. It will have the
effect of heating the centre of the plancha most, but not
excessively on one spot as an LPG burner head would do.
The pot is probably far too close for the flame to burn
well – raise it up without creating a channel for
additional air to enter the combustion area.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">If
you can get this structure to work, it will go a long way
towards assisting others to make better burners. It is
important to homogenise the gas so one side does not burn
better than another – hence the use of a concentrator
disk, but also it is important to get the secondary air
into the gases as they burn. Paul Anderson is
recommending the use of a concentrator disk. Paul Olivier
is recommending the use of a ring of flamelets (his are
vertical). I am suggesting that both are needed if you
want to get the flame length under control and to
eliminate the problem of diffusion flames running under a
large cold surface.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Outcome:
If it is working (you should be able to see the ring of
inward pointing flamelets) the pot should heat water
faster, and when you open the pot hole cover plate (a
little to peek inside) you should never see any long, lazy
flames passing underneath the plancha. The temperature of
the plancha should rise more rapidly and the whole system
should run hotter for the same burn rate.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">If
this is the result, you can reduce the primary air supply
a little and extend the burn because the system efficiency
will have increased.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Please
let me know if you are able to get this result. It might
be invisible to the user, but will result in better
performance.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Nice
work.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0mm 0mm 0mm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></b></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif""
lang="EN-US"> Inversiones Falcon [<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:invfalcones53@yahoo.com">mailto:invfalcones53@yahoo.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 27, 2014 10:05 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Paul Anderson; Harry Ha; Thong - Haiti
EmailUser Ameripham; Peter Schild - El Salvador; Bob
Fairchild; <a moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated"
href="mailto:art.donnelly@seachar.org">art.donnelly@seachar.org</a>;
Jon Anderson; CHRISTA ROTH; Biochar Yahoo Group;
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott; Ronal W. Larson; Tom Miles;
Discussion of Biomass Cooking Stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Up-date<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">Dear
Paul I have been working on our project, but until now
I found the way to send you a good video, we can
adjust any TLUD to all our frames (even desing new
model for street vendors) I will like to tried to make
an oven but at this moment I`m short of budget fot
something like this, pleas send comments on this video<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">Best
Regar<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";color:black">Gus<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
<br>
</div>
<br>
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