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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You can also use clay<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Rgd,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Musungu<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves
[mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 20 June 2014 16:55<br>
<b>To:</b> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org; Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] planting trees ( the way I'd do it 1, 000, 000,
000 years from now)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You need a starchy binder made from waste-something. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Regards <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='background:white'><span style='font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Crispin <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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style='width:100.0%;background:white;border-spacing:0px'>
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id="_persistentHeader">
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:
</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Energies
Naturals C.B.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Sent:
</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Friday,
June 20, 2014 19:48<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>To:
</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Reply
To: </span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Subject:
</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Re:
[Stoves] planting trees ( the way I'd do it 1, 000, 000, 000 years from now)<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
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</td>
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</table>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>
Dear Anand and all,<br>
<br>
last week we tried to pelletize powdery biochar from a fluidized bed gasifyer
on a european flat die pellet press.<br>
<br>
It was a messy disaster ! No pellets unless we mixed it with 75%+ sawdust.<br>
<br>
There must be a secret to pelletizing or briquetting the char. <br>
<br>
Can you give me a hint, Anand ?<br>
<br>
Thanks a lot <br>
<br>
Rolf Uhle<br>
<br>
Energies Naturals C.B.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, 15 Nov 2013 12:01:39 +0530<br>
Anand Karve <adkarve@gmail.com> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Dear Stovers,<br>
> We convert agricultural waste into charcoal by using a TLUD type of
kiln<br>
> and briquette the powdery char. In India, we produce annually about 800<br>
> million tons of agricultural waste, which can theoretically yield about
166<br>
> million tons of charcoal. There is no need to cut any trees for charcoal.<br>
> Yours<br>
> A.D.Karve<br>
> <br>
> <br>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 9:43 PM, Cookswell Jikos<br>
> <cookswelljikos@gmail.com>wrote:<br>
> <br>
> > OK.... as discouraging as the facts may be, the facts are reality,
and<br>
> > they must be dealt with to avoid future problems.<br>
> > 1: Can different species be grown, that have higher Mean Annual
Increments<br>
> > of growth?<br>
> > Yes - at least in East African drylands - the traditional colonial
methods<br>
> > of silviculture were focused on high land pine and cypress
plantations<br>
> > not indigenous dry land adapted trees. (which now provides the
feedstock<br>
> > for more of Kenyas charcoal) Since 1994 we have been experimenting
with<br>
> > different dryland planting and agronomic techniques (please see<br>
> > <a
href="http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf">http://www.acts.or.ke/dmdocuments/PROJECT_REPORTS/PISCES_Sustainable_Charcoal.pdf</a>
pg.<br>
> > 7) and most of our findings so far have led us to belive that endimic
tree<br>
> > species managed in a holistic and permacutrual manner produce
coppiced<br>
> > 'branch' charcoal with an excellent life cycle analysis profile.<br>
> ><br>
> > 2: Can the woodlots be managed better?<br>
> > I think there is always room for improvement in many fields, but I<br>
> > have definitely noticed more small and large farms in Kenya appling
more of<br>
> > a conservation agriculture approach to land use planning.<br>
> ><br>
> > 3: Can cooking practises be changed?<br>
> > Yes - but with great difficulty. Imagine me coming from Kenya to tell
your<br>
> > grandma that she's all wrong and vice versa...<br>
> ><br>
> > What I have found though is that as people achieve higher incomes
(and<br>
> > watch more TV) in East Africa cooking energy sources becomes more
mixed and<br>
> > more specialized depending on the dish being cooked.<br>
> ><br>
> > 4: Would more efficient stoves help significantly?<br>
> > The Kenya Ceramic Jiko has been one of the most widely disseminated<br>
> > cookstoves in East Africa, on one hand, it saves users up to 50% on
their<br>
> > charcoal bills compared to all metal non-insulated stoves. On the
other<br>
> > hand, me and my father always wondered that if by making popularly
stove<br>
> > that made it cheaper and easier to use charcoal coupled<br>
> > with population growth, did we not create more of a fuel dependency?
This<br>
> > is why since the 1990's we have been advocating as much as possible
to<br>
> > encourage all other stove makers to also think about provisions for<br>
> > reafforestation efforts.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > 5: Can other forms of fuel, or other sources of energy, be used to
take<br>
> > some of the pressure off the woodlots?<br>
> > Please see this recently released quite amazing document from ICRAF<br>
> > <a
href="http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013">http://www.slideshare.net/agroforestry/miyuki-iiyamaicrafcharcoal-review2013</a>
''What<br>
> > happend to the charcoal crisis?''<br>
> ><br>
> > Yes, but if as WWF has seen in Virunga, if people switch to fossil
fuels,<br>
> > what happens when they are found under forests? And even solar
cookers and<br>
> > microwaves may not help as much as if one takes into account the Life
Cycle<br>
> > Analysis of the transport, computing power to design one etc... a 3
stone<br>
> > fire and growing your own trees start looking more attractive.<br>
> ><br>
> > I am a great proponent of tree based biomass energy for at least
people's<br>
> > sunday BBQ's ( which is a huge cause of charcoal us in Kenya!) due to
the<br>
> > fact of all the other ecological trickledown effects.<br>
> ><br>
> > 6: Would some form of "Agroforestry" be possible, to put
the land to a<br>
> > higher use, with multi-cropping?<br>
> > ...etc...<br>
> ><br>
> > yes we have tried food, fuel and fodder combinations to good effect
in<br>
> > Kajiado - linear non-woodlot forestry is beginning to create more of<br>
> > an appearance in this area as land becomes adjudicated and title
deeds<br>
> > issued. Land tenure is a huge obstacle to forestry in Kenya, this is
why<br>
> > I personally am in favour of things like aerial seeding programs - if
we<br>
> > some how grow too many trees, we will always be able to cut them down
to<br>
> > cook with!<br>
> > <a
href="https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef">https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.622109591163773.1073741929.199734683401268&type=1&l=0b605799ef</a><br>
> ><br>
> > Many thanks for your response.<br>
> ><br>
> > Teddy<br>
> ><br>
> > *Cookswell Jikos*<br>
> > <a href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke">www.cookswell.co.ke</a><br>
> > <a href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a><br>
> > <a href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a><br>
> > Mobile: +254 700 380 009<br>
> > Mobile: +254 700 905 913<br>
> > P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:15 AM, <Carefreeland@aol.com> wrote:<br>
> ><br>
> >> Kevin and Stovers,<br>
> >> I am desperately wanting to farther study
points 1,2,5 and 6. You got<br>
> >> my attention buddy. Sorry, I don't have a 100 year old experiment
to show<br>
> >> you the results of my work. I do not do research papers because
I'm an<br>
> >> illiterate idiot. Many of you who have been on this list a while
may<br>
> >> remember- this letter will be a small record of the state of a
sample of my<br>
> >> research. Nobody has me asked this lately but you, Kevin. I'll
probably die<br>
> >> knowing and wanting to know way more than I can ever tell, if I
talked the<br>
> >> rest of my life. It just seems to bore everybody but some Biomass
people. I<br>
> >> miss you all out here alone trapped in the future.<br>
> >> My extensive experience with landscaping
and gardening suggests we<br>
> >> have only begun to barely scratch the surface of multicropping
research.<br>
> >> Mother Nature has done an amazing job of this, but we are not
after the<br>
> >> same goals as her. Typical natural forestry suggests that a 3
layer canopy<br>
> >> is most efficent in biomass productive environments. As we push
into less<br>
> >> productive land, that will be different in both directions. .
What each<br>
> >> layer consists of for any given set of environmental conditions
is has wide<br>
> >> increasingly complex variables. Someday 100 years from now, a
computer<br>
> >> program will be crunching in whatever is the Cray Super Computer
of that<br>
> >> age. It will tell the then modern forester what works best-
maybe. Then,<br>
> >> only experiments to compare the real time data to to the computer
model<br>
> >> will fine tune the long term plan.<br>
> >> Modern complex forestry computer programs
mostly focus on select<br>
> >> harvest models. Computer planting programs just use current
harvest data to<br>
> >> optimise plantation - type management. How do you get data
on trees that<br>
> >> take 300 years or more to be fully mature? Recent studies
suggest that<br>
> >> 1000 year old Redwoods are still increasing in biomass production
over<br>
> >> younger trees. Got 1000 years to collect data?? Maybe we should
be breeding<br>
> >> many trees to grow 1000 years.<br>
> >> If we make half the progress growing
trees that we have made in a<br>
> >> typical productive vegetable garden in 4000 or more years, you
can throw<br>
> >> out the predictions for production numbers. New numbers may be
easily a<br>
> >> power of ten more productive. Just look what small changes have
brought us.<br>
> >> When you consider the efficiency of photosynthisis to convert
sunlight into<br>
> >> chemical energy, that number theoreticlly can go two powers of
ten or more.<br>
> >> Not only do we need to first optimise growing technique, but then
optimise<br>
> >> breeding, and back to growing technique and so fourth.<br>
> >> I don't even want to consider pandoras
box of geneticly modified<br>
> >> plants. I think outer space is the best place to release them so
they don't<br>
> >> contaminate our biosphere like GM corn has. I considered that
thought over<br>
> >> 20 years ago and it merged with my childhood idea of growing
trees on the<br>
> >> moon and on orbit. That is why I've wanted to merge a
greenhouse with a<br>
> >> blacksmith shop. It's how space homesteads will do it. I
discussed this<br>
> >> issue at a hydroponics conference in the early 1990's and
everybodys eyes<br>
> >> rolled, so I just went out and worked on it with what I had.
Nobody came to<br>
> >> collect the amazing data I saw everyday for twenty years. A few
years ago,<br>
> >> my greenhouse was forced to close and my finacial situation has nearly<br>
> >> halted all my research. I hope to slowly get back in the game if
I don't<br>
> >> loose my new 5 acre farm. It is Gods gift to me for my study.
Most of the<br>
> >> assets of this land are hidden and only of use to me.<br>
> >> Most of the forests today are being
primarlily managed for lumber of<br>
> >> some type. Hunting wildlife is about the only large second crop.
Small<br>
> >> private lands and prototype corporate plantations are where the
experiments<br>
> >> are being done. When we start to combine orchard and vegetable
production<br>
> >> with forestry, the sky is the limit. I take that back, how far
has the Big<br>
> >> Bang blown things open today? That is the limit. And this is how
we will<br>
> >> get out there if we do, over a billion years of future evolution
and space<br>
> >> travel. Call me crazy, but I saw a powerful vision as a child
that told me<br>
> >> this. You just keep moving the decimal point on the equation.
Carl Sagan<br>
> >> must have seen a vision like mine, and so I supported his work
long ago.<br>
> >> Most thought he was craazy too. Thanks Carl.<br>
> >> I have been blessed to spend a little
time with one of the greatest<br>
> >> foresters of our generation. John Guthrie of Wiggins Mississippi
fame. My<br>
> >> crash course in Southern USA forestry, shortly after Hurricane
Katrina,<br>
> >> taught me the following: The closer we get to understanding the
original<br>
> >> native environment, the better we can merge our needs to the use
of the<br>
> >> land given to us.<br>
> >> John would be first to tell you that if
only a higher power can make<br>
> >> a tree, who are we to decide how and where to grow it? That has
led him to<br>
> >> push the reintroduction of missing native tree species which have
been<br>
> >> eliminated one at a time. Grown in plantations to examine and
focuse on<br>
> >> each, longleaf pine is a good example. It was like the White Oak
tree, the<br>
> >> king of the forest, until it was logged nearly to extinction.
Currently,<br>
> >> burning of undergrowth is done like the Natives did for
management in early<br>
> >> stage plantations. Timing is everything. We had lively
conversation about<br>
> >> grazing and/ or underplanting of numerous shrub species to reduce
this<br>
> >> practice. I think I opened up his mind by the smile on his face.
Some<br>
> >> private plantations were doing this on a very basic experimental
level in<br>
> >> 2006.<br>
> >> The forest plot I was camped in, had
longleaf pine being interplanted<br>
> >> where select thining was being done to young Southern Yellow
Pine, It was<br>
> >> John"s land right behind the International Paper plant, so I
think it was a<br>
> >> prototype. The thinnings were going mostly to chip and saw for
OSB and<br>
> >> other products. The small thinings were hauled at harvest cost
for pulp.<br>
> >> Katrina opened it up more - as if God were saying to John "
you got the<br>
> >> idea boy, now go with it and I'll help yu".<br>
> >> Dr. Michler I belive is his name,
discussed his work at Purdue U.<br>
> >> with me about 10 years ago. At the time he was pioneering in the
selecting<br>
> >> of 3 hardwood species: Red Oak, Black Cherry, and Walnut.
An Indiana<br>
> >> nursery was selling the products of tissue culture of the best
selected<br>
> >> species. Breeding of hardwoods was still in it's infancy. The new
science<br>
> >> then was using gene mapping to select known genes to assist
breeding of<br>
> >> trees which were only starting to bear fruit. That is very
exciting -more<br>
> >> productive and safe than GM plants. I called because I wanted to
know if<br>
> >> anybody had studied growing trees to make charcoal fuel and he
wondered<br>
> >> what for.....<br>
> >> Kevin, I would like to add to your bucket
list a huge compounding<br>
> >> factor number 7. What happens when we do all of the above,
yet look at<br>
> >> secondary and multiple layers of recycling of plants. For a great
example<br>
> >> you and I may have discussed the fact that Charcoal production
for an<br>
> >> industrial fuel may be the best utimate landfill killer.
Demolition waste<br>
> >> must be the largest growing filler of landfills. I have done
limited<br>
> >> research into which trees produce the best metallurgical
charcoal. What<br>
> >> happens when we breed trees for example, to both build houses,
then reuse<br>
> >> the wood to fuel a blast furnace to make the finest iron ever
made?. The<br>
> >> two uses are very compatible. Just so happens that some of the
strongest<br>
> >> hardwoods as well as pine species make real clean charcoal. The
hardwoods<br>
> >> make the most dense charcoal by nature. We can also infuse
charcoal with<br>
> >> additional hydrocarbons in the conversion process, with net
energy<br>
> >> production. If we grow walnut trees for example, we can produce
food and<br>
> >> many chemicals too at no additional cost.<br>
> >> Nearly every organic chemical can be
coaxed from living material.<br>
> >> Don't even get me started on the chemical refinery/production
avenue. I've<br>
> >> said enough. I cannot do much more or take time to record what
I've found<br>
> >> out or can find out without a break in life somewhere. That
is why I don't<br>
> >> contribute much anymore to these lists. It gets me all excited,
and then<br>
> >> frustration sets in. I have 3 kids to raise and cannot waste my
time<br>
> >> playing with the future of mankind when I need food stamps.<br>
> >> Enough said.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> Ok , do I have anybodies attention now???<br>
> >> I have to get off the computer so my Son
can do his homework, Sorry,<br>
> >> no time for editing or additional info tonight.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Dan Dimiduk<br>
> >> Shangri- La Research.<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> In a message dated 11/13/2013 7:41:16 AM Eastern Standard Time,<br>
> >> kchisholm@ca.inter.net writes:<br>
> >><br>
> >> Dear RB<br>
> >><br>
> >> OK.... as discouraging as the facts may be, the facts are
reality, and<br>
> >> they must be dealt with to avoid future problems.<br>
> >> 1: Can different species be grown, that have higher Mean Annual<br>
> >> Increments of growth?<br>
> >> 2: Can the woodlots be managed better?<br>
> >> 3: Can cooking practises be changed?<br>
> >> 4: Would more efficient stoves help significantly?<br>
> >> 5: Can other forms of fuel, or other sources of energy, be used
to take<br>
> >> some of the pressure off the woodlots?<br>
> >> 6: Would some form of "Agroforestry" be possible, to
put the land to a<br>
> >> higher use, with multi-cropping?<br>
> >> ...etc...<br>
> >><br>
> >> Most people like to do things the way they have always been done.
They<br>
> >> can't expect different results if they do things the same way
they have<br>
> >> always done things in the past. The cruel facts are that if they
want<br>
> >> different results, then they will have to find changes that are
acceptable<br>
> >> to them, OR choose to live with the consequences of their present<br>
> >> practises. Those seem to be the cruel realities.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Best wishes,<br>
> >><br>
> >> Kevin<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> _______________________________________________<br>
> >> Stoves mailing list<br>
> >><br>
> >> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> >> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
> >><br>
> >> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> >><br>
> >> <a
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> >><br>
> >> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
our web site:<br>
> >> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Stoves mailing list<br>
> ><br>
> > to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
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href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
> ><br>
> > for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
web site:<br>
> > <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> <br>
> <br>
> -- <br>
> ***<br>
> Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
> Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute
(ARTI)<br>
<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Energies Naturals C.B. <energiesnaturals@gmx.de><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
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<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p>
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