<div dir="ltr"><div>Dear Julien,</div><div>I would think viscosity of gases increases with temperature due to the ashes on them nearing the point of softening. </div><div>Regards,</div><div>Luis Osorio</div><div>Mobile:+57 300 615 1434</div>
<div><br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 1:00 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves-request@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
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1. Re: Trials on TLUD Gas Burners - Burner Diameter<br>
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
2. Trials on TLUD Gas Burners - Burner Diameter (Julien Winter)<br>
3. Re: Trials on TLUD Gas Burners - Burner Diameter<br>
(Crispin Pemberton-Pigott)<br>
<br>
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Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 19:07:08 -0400<br>
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'"<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Trials on TLUD Gas Burners - Burner Diameter<br>
Message-ID: <COL401-EAS138DE80B078EB1CF3D71D18B1FE0@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Dear Julien<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
This is a good and helpful report with a lot of practical experience built in.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On slide 7 it says ?However, heating air decreases its density, so air velocity must increase to maintain the quantity of oxygen mixing with pyrogas.?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It is probably worth mentioning, because it is against common sense, that increasing the temperature reduces the density but increases the viscosity. Getting the right size hole is not quite as simple as a pro-rata change in area. That plus of course the shape of the entry hole changes the flow (a lot).<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
@Paul S Anderson, what do you think of us putting together a chart with a diameter/flow plot for different levels of draft?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Question: In slide 18, it gives the burn rate per unit time per unit volume. I can?t grasp that easily. Is the density somehow detectable in there? What is the mass loss rate in g/minute? While I realise that meaningful interpretation requires knowing the volume of fuel involved, I was trying to calculate the water mass out of the burn rate to see what the ?real burn rate? was. It is difficult to do that as the mass per unit time is not the metric.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Is there some other way you can report the burn rate for different fuel moisture levels?<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
It would be helpful, if you stick to the mg/minute/cm2 and first factor the mass loss raw data for the moisture content so it is mgDRY. In that way we can calculate the fuel burn rate and then, using the moisture level, calculate the true realisable energy (potential) value.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Performing this calculation sometimes gives surprises. From the look of the curves, the energy available drops as well as the burn rate. This is intuitive but not always the case. One thing to take a lesson from is the investigation which shows that 15% moisture fuel usually has lower PM emissions in most devices than 10% or 5%, but increasing it above 15% more sees the level rise. For each stove type there is an optimum.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
For the TLUD?s with a different burner design, there is probably a different optimal moisture level.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Thanks for sharing the presentation.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Crispin<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Hi Stoves;<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
In May, I reported to this listserv on some tests I had done with a menagerie of gas burners.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2014-May/008665.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2014-May/008665.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
My tinkering has continued, and some results are attached as a pdf that show some interesting features of ND-TLUDs. For example, the best I could do for a turndown was about 2x, and turndown is very sensitive to primary air supply.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
These tests follow from the earlier work were is was shown that placing a concentrator disk below the secondary air inlets did not result in a flame concentrated above the aperture in the disk. Instead, pyrogas moved radially outward to the underside of the secondary air holes, and became entrained in the jets of secondary air.<br>
<br>
In addition, I was using gas burners that were 1.2 x larger than the diameter of the TLUD combustion chamber so as to get more space to manipulate secondary air, and more space for the gas flame to develop. This work suggested that is was possible to increase the diameter of the gas burner even further. The current trials put this to the test. Here is an abstract of the study:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
ABASTACT<br>
<br>
Gas burners for a natural draft, top-lit updraft gasifier (ND-TLUD) were assessed for visible flame characteristics and their effect on gasification rate. Two main design options were tested: diameter of the burner and preheating secondary air. Burners were tested on wood chip fuel that varied in moisture content, and primary air was adjusted to get very low to maximal rates of gasification. Preheating secondary air had no visible effect on the gas flame nor did it alter gasification rate. Increasing the size of the gas burner from 1x to 1.2x the diameter of the TLUD significantly improved gasification rate, reduced flame height, and reduced visible smoke production. Further increasing burner diameter to 1.5x TLUD diameter didn?t cause a further increase gasification rate, and made the reaction unstable at low rates of primary air and high fuel moisture contents. Increasing the diameter of burners to at least 1.2x looked very promising for improving TLUD operation. Burners of 1.5x may be suitable for TLUDs that only run at high gasification rates. Larger diameter burners will likely cause less air pollution, and should be tested for CO and particulate emissions.<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
Increasing the size of gas burners could be tested with some of Jock Gill's ideas for increasing flame temperature in the burner.<br>
<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2014-May/008843.html" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2014-May/008843.html</a><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
All the best,<br>
<br>
Julien.<br>
<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 20:49:31 -0400<br>
From: Julien Winter <<a href="mailto:winter.julien@gmail.com">winter.julien@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<<a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>><br>
Subject: [Stoves] Trials on TLUD Gas Burners - Burner Diameter<br>
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Dear Crispin and Stovers;<br>
<br>
Thanks for your comments. They are very insightful, as always.<br>
<br>
You make a good point that I should mention viscosity. I have read that<br>
viscosity of gases increase as their temperature increases, but I don't<br>
know why. Does anybody have an answer and a reference?<br>
<br>
The reproduction of slide 18 may not be very clear. I am reporting all my<br>
gasification rates as mg/min/cm^2. Unless my equation is in error (side<br>
14), this is loss of fuel dry matter / unit time / per unit area of TLUD.<br>
I divided by the area of the TLUD to give a 'specific' gasification rate<br>
that could be directly compared measurements on other TLUDs of different<br>
diameters.<br>
<br>
When designing an experiment, the researcher often wants to hold certain<br>
features constant, whilst varying an experimental factor. This often leads<br>
to situations which are not quite optimal. In my case, I held the diameter<br>
of the secondary air holes constant, whilst varying burner diameter. That<br>
way I was isolating the effect of diameter. However, under practical<br>
circumstances, it may be better to decrease the size of the secondary air<br>
holes as diameter decreases. Thus the 1x burner may work better with<br>
smaller holes. (I did try this on 16% moisture fuel with no success.) So<br>
a more thorough experiment would be to vary both hole size and burner<br>
diameter.<br>
<br>
I have varied hole size in another trial. The gasification rate increased<br>
when I increased hole diameter, but I decreased the number of holes to keep<br>
the total area for secondary air constant. I had 16x 1.45 cm, 12x 1.75 cm,<br>
and 8x 2.05 cm holes. However, this is another example of keeping<br>
something constant and producing an impractical consequence. If you<br>
increase the hole size, but decrease their number, the space between holes<br>
becomes too large; so in practical terms, you can't increase hole diameter<br>
and keep the total area for secondary air constant. The burner with 8 x<br>
2.05 cm holes had to be scrapped.<br>
<br>
The good thing about small prototype TLUDs is that you can run many trials<br>
at low cost, and develop theories and hypothesis to be corroborated later<br>
on full size models. This trial had 90 experimental units for the lowest<br>
three moisture levels. I would not like to have tried that with a full<br>
size stove without having run prototypes first. However, when it comes to<br>
developing real world stoves, prototypes will not suffice. In the end, we<br>
have to get the response curves for changing the dimensions of working-size<br>
burners.<br>
<br>
The MOST IMPORTANT thing I have discovered is that if you mix canned chick<br>
peas with canned tomatoes, a lot of fried onions, and curry paste ... and<br>
eat this mix with rice several times a day for a few weeks, you will have a<br>
lot of tin cans. It helps to wash it down with coffee that comes in large<br>
cans.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Julien<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
Julien Winter<br>
Cobourg, ON, CANADA<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2014 21:24:47 -0400<br>
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
Subject: Re: [Stoves] Trials on TLUD Gas Burners - Burner Diameter<br>
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</blockquote></div><br></div>