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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I do not find the discussion odd or out of topic. I am saddened at all the effort being put into gasifier stoves carefully designed to consume only part of the fuel. From the user’s perspective, I can see no point in spending a lot of energy and time in gathering fuel, only to have to throw much of it away. You have to appreciate the effort it takes to harvest wood in the first place. In some communities, we have found people collecting wood 22h out of 24. The distance they have to travel follows a very skew distribution, with a median distance of around 2km and a maximum distance of over 6km. Try walking 6km with 20kg of wood balanced on your head, and you will get some idea of the effort involved. Then the wood still has to be broken into a usable size, sapping yet more of your energy. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Seen from this perspective, any efficiency metric that does not allow for the loss of fuel by generating charcoal is plain wrong. It may make some stovers happy; it cannot be of assistance to those trying to stay alive at the fringes of existence, for whom we are all trying to find clean means of cooking.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Prof Philip Lloyd</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Energy Institute</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cape Peninsula University of Technology</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tel:021 460 4216</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fax:021 460 3828</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cell: 083 441 5247</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Otto Formo<br><b>Sent:</b> 16 September 2014 09:39<br><b>To:</b> Stoves Bioenergylist<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] cook stoves for Cameroon<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Paul and Huck,<br> <br>I find this issue a bit od and out of "topic".<br>Why is suddenly WOOD such a "hot topic", when the most interesting part is FUEL, Solid or Liquid from any type of biomass?<br> <br>Producing charcoal or any other liquid fuel, you can not SKIP the processing part, consuming energy as well.<br>This is also called a "Life circle" for a product (biomass fuel) - see energy forestry.<br> <br>Gasifier units; read<br>"<strong>Micro Kilns"</strong>, utilizing the charcoal from wood or any other dry biomass for cooking, will be more energy and fuel efficient, compared to traditional made charcoal.<br> <br><strong>Because</strong> you are utillizing the energy content in the biomass for cooking, while producing charcoal, wheter you test the other way or another. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Have a Nice day. <br> <br>Otto<br> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=3 width="100%" align=center id=stopSpelling></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2014 23:25:02 -0500<br>From: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a><br>To: <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>Subject: Re: [Stoves] cook stoves for Cameroon<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Huck,<br><br>Crispin wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thus ‘gasifiers’ are getting rated as if they do not consume fuel that is actually consumed.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Crispin's point is that wood that is turned into charcoal is no longer wood. THAT is true. But there are two ways to state the efficiency: Fuel efficiency and Energy efficiency. Charcoal that is created is no longer wood. But it is a fuel made from wood that was transformed. And it typically represent 25% to 35% of the energy that is in the dry weight of the wood. <br><br>You indicated that the area is reasonably wooded. So it is not a case of scarcity of wood. <br><br>If the created charcoal is put into the soil as biochar, then that energy content is no longer available.<br><br>You as the project leader and with your personnel can make the decision about how to read the numbers in the reports on stove efficiency (of fuel or of energy).<br><br>Paul<o:p></o:p></p><pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><p class=MsoNormal>On 9/15/2014 10:45 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Huck</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Just one quick point:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“The gasifier, as I understand it, is more efficient and has lower emissions.”</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><div><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It depends on the test method and the metrics. It is fashionable to use the GACC-WBT and that test does not report fuel consumption, it reports the fuel mass equivalent of the energy consumption, treating charcoal left over as unburned raw fuel (meaning it says the wood was not consumed).</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Thus ‘gasifiers’ are getting rated as if they do not consume fuel that is actually consumed. When you assess the performance be sure you are clear on how the method calculates performance and what the metrics are. You may want to measure ( and weigh) fuel needed per cooking cycle rather than use any calculated numbers from a complex test protocol.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>For evaluation of performance I recommend the CSI-WHT which is a water heating test (no boiling) and a measure of the raw fuel needed per replication of the cooing cycle. It is used by the WB in the Clean Stove Initiative in Indonesia. Documentation (some anyway) is available.</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Crispin in Tamil Naidu</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=ecxmsonormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><pre>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><p class=MsoNormal><br><br>_______________________________________________ Stoves mailing list to Send a Message to the list, use the email address <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site: <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div></body></html>