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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Ron and list,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think it helps to understand why people use charcoal for cooking. They use it because transport of wood is too expensive and/or the transport networks are inefficient. Thus, for instance, many towns in East Africa are supplied by charcoal carried in by bicycle from charcoal burners miles from the town. A bicycle-load of charcoal has the energy equivalent of the branches that can be piled into a three-ton truck. The level of deforestation that results is impressive.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The lesson from this is that wood- and charcoal-burning communities do not co-exist – or, if they do, I have yet to identify one. The other lesson is that making charcoal is energy-inefficient. For these reasons no, I can’t imagine people wanting to make money by making char while cooking.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Prof Philip Lloyd</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Energy Institute</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cape Peninsula University of Technology</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Tel:021 460 4216</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fax:021 460 3828</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cell: 083 441 5247</span><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Ronal W. Larson<br><b>Sent:</b> 20 September 2014 04:43<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] cook stoves for Cameroon<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Crispin and list<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <span class=apple-tab-span> </span>Very peculiar to me that you can’t imagine people wanting to make money by making char while cooking and then selling it. Perhaps you have a citation for this view?<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span class=apple-tab-span> </span>It would be most helpful if you could send something (anything) on this CSI calculation methodology - which I have requested two or three times already and your promised once.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Ron<span class=apple-tab-span> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sep 17, 2014, at 9:38 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Huck</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The last question first:</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>How much ‘tree’ do you need to cook?</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is the question. If you are cooking on multiple stoves one that makes charcoal and one that burns it, you can analyse that as a ‘system’ but remember that to evaluate them you have to do them separately. A lot of conflict, actually, has emerged over this question because those who want to make charcoal-making stoves don’t want them penalised for being inefficient, even if they are. They bring a lot of arguments in favour of this or that aspect of a system of which the stove is a port. No problem – such arguments are reasonable when discussing systems, however your question is strictly about stove performance.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The way you phrased the question is the same as the way the UNFCCC phrases it – how much tree for how much cooking. The assumption is that less trees used for the same amount of cooking is more efficient.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>When calculations are made, however, people frequently calculate the energy released, not the amount of fuel consumed and the two numbers are nearly always different. We are not burning gasoline. Cars do not make charcoal. ‘Leftovers’ can be a significant portion of the energy available,</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>As Prof Lloyd just remarked a couple of days ago, it takes a lot of work to get fuel and people are not crazy – they want to burn it before going out to get more.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>It is for these reasons that het Clean Stove Initiative Indonesia (CSI-Indonesia) uses a calculation method that captures the amount of raw fuel needed to complete another test burn cycle. The energy in that ‘fuel consumed’ is determined. That is the energy available. The energy gained by the pot (including the heat gained by the pot material as it can be substantial) is determined over a cooking simulation. In the case of the CSI-Indonesia pilot the determination is made using the CSI-WHT (‘Water Heating Test’). This is an accurate measure of the energy gained by the pot – to within a few Joules.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Energy applied divided by energy drawn from the forest is the system efficiency, or ‘overall efficiency’.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Crispin</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-CA> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hi All,</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I found myself a little confused by the discussion. </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Not being expert in the field, this is how I would pose my questions:</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><ol style='margin-top:0cm' start=1 type=1><li class=MsoNormal style='color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>There is a certain amount of energy per kilogram of wood (I’m going to stick with wood for the moment rather than all biomass).</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>When burned, some of that energy is realized and some is not, i.e. there is not complete combustion. How complete is the combustion? How much energy is released? That would be the first measure. I want this because it tells me about one component of the system and is useful for design. It does not tell me the net result for the user.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>How much of the released energy goes into cooking? That would be my next measure. That should tell me what weight of wood people have to collect to cook their food. It is worth noting that the amount of energy that goes into cooking is also affected by the pots and lids used as well as how they fit onto the stove.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>It is also important to know how much energy was expended to get the fuel and prepare it for use. Some of that energy is human energy so it gets treated a bit differently and has a different impact. For example, it doesn’t convert simply to climate impact (are humans low global warming gas emitters?). If you cut up the fuel a lot and process it a lot there is a cost there. I don’t know how that stacks up for gasifiers vs other stoves.</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Regarding charcoal. I am presuming you can still use the charcoal. I was, apparently erroneously, under the impression that gasifier stoves could continue to receive primary air and therefore burn the charcoal. I actually liked that idea because it was simple and used most of the energy in the stove. If you take the charcoal out of the stove you then have a couple of options for using it. You can burn it in another stove, which has some appeal as you can do a different kind of cooking with it (e.g. BBQ, or ?). But also seems like quite a bit of work and complication for a small amount of charcoal. Or, you can use it in the soil. So another question:</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Is a gasifier stove with charcoal (biochar) buried actually carbon negative?</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></li><li class=MsoNormal style='color:#1F497D;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1'><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>Then the other important measure: what are the emissions?</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></li></ol><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And, a kind of crude question: with the ins and outs of this discussion is it the case that rocket stoves or some other stove is more efficient than the gasifiers? In my question by efficiency I mean kg of wood required for a Cameroonian to cook their meals?</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Which stove do they have to carry more wood for and do more fuel preparation for? (I’m not sure how you measure the combined work for those tasks).</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Huck</span><span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><a name="_MailEndCompose"></a> <span lang=EN-CA><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-CA style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>