<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Prof. Lloyd:</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>These are good pictures, and maybe are supposed to represent a problem - but how do we tie them into Huck and the Cameroon stove question?</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Sep 20, 2014, at 3:46 PM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Ron,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Herewith just a few pictures to indicate the transport of charcoal; no problem in showing that this is more efficient IF you don’t have modern transport systems and industrial-level wood harvesting – which most of the Third World lacks<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image001.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image002.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image004.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image005.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image007.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image009.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">But sometimes - - -<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><image011.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I really am not listening to Crispin. I am talking to people on the ground, trying to understand their problems in order to formulate solutions that are acceptable to them. First understand what your customers want – it is the age-old rule of marketing.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Prof Philip Lloyd</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Energy Institute</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cape Peninsula University of Technology</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Tel:021 460 4216</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fax:021 460 3828</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cell: 083 441 5247</span><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Ronal W. Larson<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>20 September 2014 06:02<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass; <a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a><br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] cook stoves for Cameroon<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dr. Lloyd and list<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>You have provided answers to all your own questions. But with a few logical errors in between, so your conclusions are wrong. See below.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On Sep 20, 2014, at 5:54 AM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Ron and list,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I think it helps to understand why people use charcoal for cooking. They use it because transport of wood is too expensive and/or the transport networks are inefficient. </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL: Clearly charcoal fires are easier to use and take care of. Less time for the cook. Seemingly cleaner; little smoke usually (but people die from CO poisoning regularly). But much of this apparent advantage is removed with the use of char-making stoves. The main disadvantage of these is they are batch. The choice will come down to balancing benefits vs costs.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>But you are listening too much to Crispin on the cost of transporting wood vs char. There was a long dialog on this between Crispin and Dr. Paul Means of the Burn Design Labs group (Seattle area) - and I for one came away believing Dr. Means. When I did this Google search:</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul+Means+Crispin+transport+wood+charcoal+stoves&oq=Paul+Means+Crispin+transport+wood+charcoal+stoves&aqs=chrome..69i57.27307j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul+Means+Crispin+transport+wood+charcoal+stoves&oq=Paul+Means+Crispin+transport+wood+charcoal+stoves&aqs=chrome..69i57.27307j0j4&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=91&ie=UTF-8</a><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">these are the first seven items that popped up - mostly in this list archives in the April 2013 timeframe. I don’t have the time nor inclination to revisit this topic, but I assume you or someone will tell me where the truth lies on the cost of transporting energy for cooking. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><h3 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2013-April/005504.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">[</span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Stoves</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">] Alternative to </span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">charcoal</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;"> - BioEnergy Lists</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><cite><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal;"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/</a><b>stoves</b>_lists...org/2013.../005504.html</span></cite><span style="color: gray;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-left: 2pt; margin-right: 2pt; -webkit-user-select: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span class="f"><span style="color: gray;">Apr 8, 2013 - </span></span><span class="st"><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);">At Ethos, I was unfortunately giving a talk when <b>Paul Means</b> gave his talk (the ... <b>transport</b> of <b>charcoal</b> (MJ per ton-mile) is much cheaper than <b>transporting wood</b> ... by <b>Crispin</b> - that <b>charcoal</b> use is superior to cooking with <b>wood</b>.</span></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-top: 3.35pt; margin-bottom: 3.35pt; display: table;"><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2013-April/005737.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(26, 13, 171); text-decoration: none;">Gathering data on TLUD <b>stoves</b> was Re: Last <b>...</b></span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Apr 27, 2013<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2013-April/005612.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(26, 13, 171); text-decoration: none;">Alternatives to <b>charcoal</b> - <b>transportation</b> & biochar</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Apr 18, 2013<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2013-April/005564.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(26, 13, 171); text-decoration: none;">More on the Alternatives to <b>Charcoal</b>.</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Apr 13, 2013<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/pipermail/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org/2011-August/001719.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(26, 13, 171); text-decoration: none;">Replies re illegalities and benefits of char.</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt; vertical-align: top;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);">Aug 17, 2011<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 102, 102);"><a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=Paul+Means+Crispin+transport+wood+charcoal+stoves+site:lists.bioenergylists.org&es_sm=91&sa=X&ei=CpIdVO-zENaeyASs0oC4Bg&ved=0CCwQrQIwAA" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(26, 13, 171); text-decoration: none;">More results from lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div><h3 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org/msg05087.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Re: [</span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Stoves</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">] Last? Alternative to </span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Charcoal</span></b></a><o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><cite><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal;"><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://www.mail-archive.com/</a><b>stoves</b>@lists.bioenergylists.../msg05087.ht...</span></cite><span style="color: gray;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-left: 2pt; margin-right: 2pt; -webkit-user-select: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span class="f"><span style="color: gray;">Apr 20, 2013 - </span></span><span class="st"><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);">On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 7:17 PM, <b>Paul Means</b> <p...@<a href="http://burndesignlab.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">burndesignlab.org</a>> wrote: > Hi <b>Crispin</b>, > In answer to your questions. I assumed that the cost of<b>transportation</b>, > for bulk products like this will primarily be based on ... I aim higher > than that but let's stick to average mediocre <b>wood</b> and <b>charcoal stoves</b>.</span></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><h3 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org/msg05000.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Re: [</span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Stoves</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">] Alternative to </span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">charcoal</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;"> "adam-retort" 39 </span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">...</span></b></a><o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><cite><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal;"><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://www.mail-archive.com/</a><b>stoves</b>@lists.bioenergylists.../msg05000.ht...</span></cite><span style="color: gray;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-left: 2pt; margin-right: 2pt; -webkit-user-select: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span class="f"><span style="color: gray;">Apr 10, 2013 - </span></span><span class="st"><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);">If we look at the "continuum" between <b>wood</b> as a fuel, and <b>charcoal</b> as ...<b>Crispin's</b> Proposed <b>Stove</b> testing Protocols are perhaps best for "Full Combustion Biomass <b>Stoves</b>. ... At the recent ETHOS conference <b>Paul Means</b> and Chris Lanning ... When fairly dry, <b>transport</b> the <b>wood</b> to the users as with <b>charcoal</b>.</span></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><h3 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org/msg05191.html" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Re [</span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Stoves</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">] Last? Alternative to </span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Charcoal</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;"> - The Mail Archive</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><cite><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal;"><a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://www.mail-archive.com/</a><b>stoves</b>@lists.bioenergylists.../msg05191.ht...</span></cite><span style="color: gray;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-left: 2pt; margin-right: 2pt; -webkit-user-select: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span class="f"><span style="color: gray;">Apr 27, 2013 - </span></span><span class="st"><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);">There is also <b>Paul</b> M. - <b>Paul Means</b> of Burn Labs, and also <b>Paul</b> O. in Vietnam ...<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://burndesignlab.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">burndesignlab.org</a>>> wrote: Hi <b>Crispin</b>, In answer to your questions. I assumed that the cost of <b>transportation</b>, for bulk products like this will ... I aim higher than that but let's stick to average mediocre <b>wood</b> and <b>charcoal stoves</b>.</span></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><h3 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biochar/conversations/messages/14956" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Biochar - Groups - Yahoo</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><cite><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal;"><a href="https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biochar/.../14956" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/biochar/.../14956</a></span></cite><span style="color: gray;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-left: 2pt; margin-right: 2pt; -webkit-user-select: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div></div><div style="margin-left: 2.65pt; display: inline-block;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(119, 119, 119);">Yahoo! Groups<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span class="f"><span style="color: gray;">Apr 20, 2013 - </span></span><span class="st"><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);">There is also <b>Paul</b> M. - <b>Paul Means</b> of Burn Labs, and also <b>Paul</b> O. in ... I assumed that the cost of <b>transportation</b>, for bulk products like this will ... I aim higher than that but let's stick to average mediocre <b>wood</b> and <b>charcoal stoves</b>. ... re the processed v.s. unprocessed fuels (char vs <b>wood</b>). Thanks <b>Crispin</b></span></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><h3 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span class="ogd"><span style="font-size: 10pt; color: rgb(26, 13, 171);">[PDF]</span></span><span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="http://seachar.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/2014-03_Micro-gasification_manual_GIZ_HERA_Roth_med.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Micro-gasification: cooking with gas from dry biomass</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><cite><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal;"><a href="http://seachar.org/.../2014-03_Micro-gasification_manual_GIZ_HERA_Roth_" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">seachar.org/.../2014-03_Micro-gasification_manual_GIZ_HERA_Roth_</a>...</span></cite><span style="color: gray;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-left: 2pt; margin-right: 2pt; -webkit-user-select: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span class="f"><span style="color: gray;">Apr 2, 2014 - </span></span><span class="st"><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);">1.2 Developing cleaner <b>cookstoves</b> for solid biomass? ... 2.0 Cooking on<b>wood</b>-gas from dry biomass – how it works . ..... Fuchs, Pam Jagger, Dr Agnes Klingshirn, Gregor Kraft, <b>Paul Means</b>, Kevin Mortimer,. <b>Crispin</b> Pemberton-Piggott, Dr André Seidel, and Paal Wendelbo for their assistance in reviewing ...</span></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><h3 style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 13.5pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Symbol;">·</span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span> <span style="font-weight: normal;"><a href="https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soil-age/bg3K-sn162A" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">Fwd: [biochar] Third report from Phnom Penh (both </span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">stoves</span></b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;"> </span><b><span style="color: rgb(102, 0, 153); text-decoration: none;">...</span></b></a><o:p></o:p></span></h3><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 10.65pt;"><cite><span style="font-size: 9.5pt; color: rgb(0, 102, 33); font-style: normal;"><a href="https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soil-age/bg3K-sn162A" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://groups.google.com/d/topic/soil-age/bg3K-sn162A</a></span></cite><span style="color: gray;"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin-left: 2pt; margin-right: 2pt; -webkit-user-select: none;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt; vertical-align: middle;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Symbol; color: gray;"><span>·<span style="font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: 'Times New Roman';"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span></span></span><span style="font-size: 8.5pt; color: gray;"> </span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; line-height: 12pt;"><span class="f"><span style="color: gray;">Mar 21, 2013 - </span></span><span class="st"><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);">To: Discussion of biomass cooking <b>stoves</b> <sto. ... The key disposable parts are compressed <b>charcoal</b> "chips" of about 2 sq in size. ... Great talk by <b>Paul Means</b> of Burn Lab (Seattle) on the (mostly <b>transportation</b>) reasons NOT to ... will add more are Priya Karve, <b>Paul</b> Anderson and <b>Crispin</b> Pemberton-Piggott.</span></span><span style="color: rgb(84, 84, 84);"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thus, for instance, many towns in East Africa are supplied by charcoal carried in by bicycle from charcoal burners miles from the town. A bicycle-load of charcoal has the energy equivalent of the branches that can be piled into a three-ton truck.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL: Based on all the work by Dr. Means, I conclude this statement is flat out wrong. I assume you will provide numbers to back this up or retract.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The level of deforestation that results is impressive.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL: Thanks for this: Even if your previous statement was true (and I strongly believe it isn’t), we should be doing everything possible to stamp out the horrible deforestation that is occurring in many countries through in-the-bush horribly inefficient and highly polluting (venting not flaring) production of char. </b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>There is a hugely curious contradiction here - I am advocating as strongly as I can to kill the use of all char for cooking - while at the same time advocating as strongly as I can for making char while cooking. My reasoning has changed over the years - my char-making stove development started in the early 1990s strictly to save forests - for the exact reason you gave - deforestation. It started after working for USAID in Sudan - which country has been ruined by its huge use of char (said to be 90% at one time for all energy consumption - certainly a lower percentage now but probably even larger in tonnes per year). </b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>Now I am driven by a climate rationale. We now have to not only get to zero added annual CO2, we have to take some out. My analyses says that biochar is the cheapest means of doing that. Not free, but cheapest. Crispin, maybe you, sees no climate issue at all. He, maybe you, probably still believes global temperatures are going to decline. I react strongly to this nonsense belief because there are never any back-up citations - only assertions. Your example of a bicycle vs a 3-ton truck is a good example.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>Apologies for this rant. Please tell me you believe in anthropogenic warming. Deforestation (the topic in this part of my rant) is definitely a big part of the cause of anthropogenic warming - but deforestation is horrible for many other reasons - as you agree.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The lesson from this is that wood- and charcoal-burning communities do not co-exist – or, if they do, I have yet to identify one.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></blockquote><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL: On this list we have had numerous reports on the relative wholesale and retail prices of wood and char. Clearly many communities are doing both - with the more affluent using the more expensive char (being more convenient in cooking). “Affluent” here is relative; the really wealthy are of course using propane or even electricity. In a while, many of those more affluent will be switching to char-making stoves as the prices of all warming fuels (including char) are taxed (as should be anything causing harm to the environment).</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>I hope others who see communities where both wood and char are being used will report that to Dr. Lloyd and this list. My guess is that of the three categories of using either or both, the latter is the largest number. </b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The other lesson is that making charcoal is energy-inefficient.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL: Absolutely - and thanks for the comment. GACC and many others are causing increased use of char for cooking by only reporting the efficiency of getting useful energy out of the char - and not including the inefficiencies in the making of char. I read numbers of 10-15% efficiency in making char (on average - it can be made more efficiently in the bush, but a good many loads are lost). Any TLUD can double these numbers - and some are even better. Char-making stoves fall into both the carbon-neutral and carbon-negative camps. There are very few technologies that can make that claim. We should also be talking of combining char-making stoves with solar cookers.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> For these reasons no, I can’t imagine people wanting to make money by making char while cooking.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><b>[RWL: Since I have disagreed with all your reasons, it must be obvious that I will disagree here as well. But you have also given no reason why a family making $1 - $2 per day (and not being able to find work many days) wouldn’t want to add even as little as 10 or 20% to that number from planting their own trees and harvesting regularly and making char, while saving time while cooking. I am not advocating that they go further to find the wood, I am advocating that they raise their own energy - exactly as they raise their own food. That they use smaller and waste biomass that can’t be used efficiently in three-stone or Rocket-type stoves. And with char being placed in soil (i.e. biochar), they raise more food (maybe double per square meter?) and they avoid the tedium of slash and burn agriculture. The slash and char Terra Preta phenomenon is real. Char in the soil allows much greater density of bacteria, fungi, etc - achieved with no (repeat “zero”) extra effort. If a cook can make $0.20 per day through cooking, most stoves will be paid off in a lot less than 1 year.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>It seems that you and Crispin are not reading anything on the sister biochar lists. There are many examples listed there of people placing char in soil and in the first year getting double productivity. Authors who come to mind who read this list and who are also on the biochar lists are Art Donnelly, Sam Craigs, Erich Knight, Kelpie Wilson, Tom Miles, Albert Bates and many more. If you can’t find any such report - ask and I will supply many. They are all over the biochar space. I am especially anxious to hear of published reports (peer reviewed or not) that claim the opposite; I see very few of those.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>I am not saying that every char placement will do this “doubling” - but the success ratio keeps getting better every year (due to advice such as using urine additions, right portion of inocculants, compost, etc).</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b></span><b>Last admission - I am writing this in part to offer guidance (as requested) to Huck and his project in the Cameroons. I repeat that the guidance from Crispin and yourself I find wanting - mainly because I see no citations. Please note the number of citations I have given above - and my promise to provide more if you can’t find them on the sister biochar lists. I will be greatly disappointed if I receive no anything on anything I have said above. Much progress can be made through dialog over disputes over facts. This especially includes the issue of anthropogenic warming, on which I am trying to spend 100% of my time.</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b>Ron</b><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"><b> </b></span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Prof Philip Lloyd</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Energy Institute</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cape Peninsula University of Technology</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="tel:021" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">Tel:021</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>460 4216</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fax:021 460 3828</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cell: 083 441 5247</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Ronal W. Larson<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>20 September 2014 04:43<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] cook stoves for Cameroon</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Crispin and list<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Very peculiar to me that you can’t imagine people wanting to make money by making char while cooking and then selling it. Perhaps you have a citation for this view?<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>It would be most helpful if you could send something (anything) on this CSI calculation methodology - which I have requested two or three times already and your promised once.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Ron<span class="apple-tab-span"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On Sep 17, 2014, at 9:38 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">crispinpigott@outlook.com</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Huck</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The last question first:</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">How much ‘tree’ do you need to cook?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">That is the question. If you are cooking on multiple stoves one that makes charcoal and one that burns it, you can analyse that as a ‘system’ but remember that to evaluate them you have to do them separately. A lot of conflict, actually, has emerged over this question because those who want to make charcoal-making stoves don’t want them penalised for being inefficient, even if they are. They bring a lot of arguments in favour of this or that aspect of a system of which the stove is a port. No problem – such arguments are reasonable when discussing systems, however your question is strictly about stove performance.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The way you phrased the question is the same as the way the UNFCCC phrases it – how much tree for how much cooking. The assumption is that less trees used for the same amount of cooking is more efficient.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">When calculations are made, however, people frequently calculate the energy released, not the amount of fuel consumed and the two numbers are nearly always different. We are not burning gasoline. Cars do not make charcoal. ‘Leftovers’ can be a significant portion of the energy available,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">As Prof Lloyd just remarked a couple of days ago, it takes a lot of work to get fuel and people are not crazy – they want to burn it before going out to get more.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">It is for these reasons that het Clean Stove Initiative Indonesia (CSI-Indonesia) uses a calculation method that captures the amount of raw fuel needed to complete another test burn cycle. The energy in that ‘fuel consumed’ is determined. That is the energy available. The energy gained by the pot (including the heat gained by the pot material as it can be substantial) is determined over a cooking simulation. In the case of the CSI-Indonesia pilot the determination is made using the CSI-WHT (‘Water Heating Test’). This is an accurate measure of the energy gained by the pot – to within a few Joules.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Energy applied divided by energy drawn from the forest is the system efficiency, or ‘overall efficiency’.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Regards</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hi All,</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I found myself a little confused by the discussion. </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Not being expert in the field, this is how I would pose my questions:</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><ol start="1" type="1" style="margin-bottom: 0cm; margin-top: 0cm;"><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">There is a certain amount of energy per kilogram of wood (I’m going to stick with wood for the moment rather than all biomass).</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">When burned, some of that energy is realized and some is not, i.e. there is not complete combustion. How complete is the combustion? How much energy is released? That would be the first measure. I want this because it tells me about one component of the system and is useful for design. It does not tell me the net result for the user.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">How much of the released energy goes into cooking? That would be my next measure. That should tell me what weight of wood people have to collect to cook their food. It is worth noting that the amount of energy that goes into cooking is also affected by the pots and lids used as well as how they fit onto the stove.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">It is also important to know how much energy was expended to get the fuel and prepare it for use. Some of that energy is human energy so it gets treated a bit differently and has a different impact. For example, it doesn’t convert simply to climate impact (are humans low global warming gas emitters?). If you cut up the fuel a lot and process it a lot there is a cost there. I don’t know how that stacks up for gasifiers vs other stoves.</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Regarding charcoal. I am presuming you can still use the charcoal. I was, apparently erroneously, under the impression that gasifier stoves could continue to receive primary air and therefore burn the charcoal. I actually liked that idea because it was simple and used most of the energy in the stove. If you take the charcoal out of the stove you then have a couple of options for using it. You can burn it in another stove, which has some appeal as you can do a different kind of cooking with it (e.g. BBQ, or ?). But also seems like quite a bit of work and complication for a small amount of charcoal. Or, you can use it in the soil. So another question:</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Is a gasifier stove with charcoal (biochar) buried actually carbon negative?</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">Then the other important measure: what are the emissions?</span><o:p></o:p></li></ol><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">And, a kind of crude question: with the ins and outs of this discussion is it the case that rocket stoves or some other stove is more efficient than the gasifiers? In my question by efficiency I mean kg of wood required for a Cameroonian to cook their meals?</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Which stove do they have to carry more wood for and do more fuel preparation for? (I’m not sure how you measure the combined work for those tasks).</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Huck</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><a name="_MailEndCompose"></a> <o:p></o:p></div></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></blockquote></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>