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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Roberto,<br>
<br>
Nice items. You are to be congratulated. My comments below are
for clarification of processes and terminology, not criticisms of
a function stove.<br>
<br>
Because, as you say, the stove is burning
<blockquote type="cite">torrefied biomass pellets.</blockquote>
which are on their way to being charcoal, <br>
<br>
AND<br>
<br>
IF there is not a true "migratory pyrolytic front" moving downward
through the fuel supply,<br>
<br>
THEN it is not a TLUD stove. <br>
<br>
It can function very well, and be very successful, but it using
principles of charcoal gasification. And that will give a great,
wonderful blue flame. (Instead, pyrolysis is the basis for TLUD
stoves.)<br>
<br>
You correctly mention the Oorja stove with its cast iron cup for
when the char was at the bottom and the forced air was blowing in
onto it. That stove could start as a TLUD, but would transition
into a bottom burning charcoal burner. <br>
<br>
Further comments are in my discussion of "Micro-gasification
terminology....", available at my website:<br>
<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/micro-gasification-terminology-14nov2013.pdf">http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/micro-gasification-terminology-14nov2013.pdf</a><br>
<br>
Note: The name of TLUD stoves should not be given credit for
cases when the stoves are not TLUDs.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 10/15/2014 2:45 PM, Roberto Poehlmann wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAK_QYTy2CdiQNV+AWqH14WhNSb5HXZHN-3+C+EMZ4w1dntR90w@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);white-space:pre-wrap">Bernhard,
Huck,</span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Vietnam Magic Flame Stove is a TLUD stove that burns
torrefied biomass pellets.</div>
<div>It use a fan to supply the air needed for gasification.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/files/A%20Clean%20Burning%20Cookstove%20-%20Belonio%20etal%202010.pdf">http://www.bioenergylists.org/files/A%20Clean%20Burning%20Cookstove%20-%20Belonio%20etal%202010.pdf</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5juuitxuWVU">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5juuitxuWVU</a><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>They have solved the problem of burning torrefied biomass
pellets with a secondary flame (near the pot).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I think that is possible to burn charcoal pellets with a
flame at the secondary air level after the end of the
pirolysis stage, in the same TLUD. It can be done using a fan
to provide sufficient air for gasification of the charcoal
pellets, or with a sufficient tall chimney (with primary air
full open).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>For example, i achieve this with a burner with secondary
air holes located on top of the concentrator ring.</div>
<div>With this burner, is more easy to burn the gases than a
"standard" TLUD burner.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>This is a video of one of my TLUD (the first version of the
burner):</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-5nq8Rx08">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq-5nq8Rx08</a></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The material stress, i think, was resolved in the oorja
stove, with a very thick cast iron grate.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>With this possibility, the user or cooker can have the
decision to burn all the fuel pellets, or to save the char or
biochar for later use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Greetings</div>
<div>Roberto Poehlmann</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:medium">Bernhard Müller</b><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:medium"> </span><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves%40lists.bioenergylists.org?Subject=Re%3A%20%5BStoves%5D%20%20Why%20doesn%27t%20charcoal%20burn%20in%20the%20Champion%20TLUD%3F&In-Reply-To=%3CCE6423BB-9FFE-42C0-8BE2-F421E5584DF8%40gmx.net%3E"
title="[Stoves] Why doesn't charcoal burn in the Champion
TLUD?" style="font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:medium">bs_mueller at gmx.net </a><br
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:medium">
<i style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:'Times New
Roman';font-size:medium">Tue Oct 14 23:54:39 MDT 2014</i><span
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<pre style="white-space:pre-wrap;color:rgb(0,0,0)">Huck,
once there is enough primary air, the charcoal does burn in a TLUD, but it should be avoided for several reasons:
1. the distance between the embers and the pot is too long to obtain a sufficient heat transfer
2. the material (steel) would be stressed too much
3. the extremely toxic CO will not be turned into CO2 completely. This is an important factor since TLUDs are operated mostly indoors in developing countries.
Bernhard S. Mueller
Eschborn, Germany
Am 14.10.2014 um 20:00 schrieb <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-request at lists.bioenergylists.org</a>:
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</i>><i> Today's Topics:
</i>><i>
</i>><i> 1. Why doesn't charcoal burn in the Champion TLUD? (Huck Rorick)
</i>><i> 2. Why doesn't charcoal burn in the Champion TLUD? (Julien Winter)
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Message: 1
</i>><i> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 09:36:35 -0700
</i>><i> From: "Huck Rorick" <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">huckrorick at groundwork.org</a>>
</i>><i> To: <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">psanders at ilstu.edu</a>>, <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves at lists.bioenergylists.org</a>>
</i>><i> Subject: [Stoves] Why doesn't charcoal burn in the Champion TLUD?
</i>><i> Message-ID: <009201cfe7cd$11cf6470$356e2d50$@<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://groundwork.org">groundwork.org</a>>
</i>><i> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Hi Paul,
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Can you explain why the charcoal in a Champion TLUD doesn't burn? There is
</i>><i> heat generated to drive off the gases from the wood. Why doesn't that heat
</i>><i> burn the carbon as well?
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Under what circumstances would it burn?
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i> If you leave the charcoal in the bottom of the TLUD and don't dump it out
</i>><i> into an airtight container will it slowly burn away in the bottom of the
</i>><i> TLUD? If you shut off the primary air? Will it burn away quickly if you
</i>><i> give maximum primary air?
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Huck
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Huck Rorick
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Executive Director
</i>><i> Groundwork Institute
</i>><i> 2640 Silvercrest Street
</i>><i> Pinole, CA 94564
</i>><i> Phone: 510-222-4111
</i>><i> email: <mailto:<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">huckrorick at groundwork.org</a>> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">huckrorick at groundwork.org</a>
</i>><i> Website: <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.groundwork.org/">http://www.groundwork.org</a>> <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.groundwork.org">www.groundwork.org</a>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
</i>><i>
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</i>><i> ------------------------------
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</i>><i> Message: 2
</i>><i> Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2014 13:36:03 -0400
</i>><i> From: Julien Winter <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">winter.julien at gmail.com</a>>
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</i>><i> Subject: [Stoves] Why doesn't charcoal burn in the Champion TLUD?
</i>><i> Message-ID:
</i>><i> <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">CALv4xTyzrQ5MMwAfLnLoSChgAytjp+J-E_iQ6QeGNmF+EATK+Q at mail.gmail.com</a>>
</i>><i> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Dear Huck;
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Charcoal from pellets burn slowly in a Champion-type TLUD, because there is
</i>><i> not enough primary air movement. The resistance to gas movement in the
</i>><i> charcoal bed is too high. Also, there isn't the draft from a strong
</i>><i> pyrogas flame.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> If you burn wood chips or sticks, the gas permeability of the char bed is
</i>><i> high, and the charcoal will burn off quite well.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> It would be nice, however, if one can get the charcoal fire closer to the
</i>><i> bottom of the pot so that there is better transmission of radiant heat.
</i>><i> Paul has a TLUD for that which breaks in half when the pyrolysis phase is
</i>><i> complete. Otherwise the path between the char fire and the pot should be
</i>><i> well insulated.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Some people mention how good it is to have a fan to force the primary air.
</i>><i> That is true for pellets, but not so much for sticks and chips, because
</i>><i> their permeability is already high and their bulk density is low (so you
</i>><i> will burn off your batch of fuel is 10 minutes if you force the air).
</i>><i>
</i>><i> (I should note that the gas permeability of a bed of fine wood chips (< 10
</i>><i> mm) is also low).
</i>><i>
</i>><i> I keep promising data to show this. Its coming soon.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> Cheers,
</i>><i> Julien.
</i>><i>
</i>><i> --
</i>><i> Julien Winter
</i>><i> Cobourg, ON, CANADA
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