<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Crispin:</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>If a TLUD is being tested, will char amount be measured automatically?</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Nov 24, 2014, at 2:35 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="white" lang="EN-CA" link="#0563C1" vlink="#954F72" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Paul and All<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">“</span>I also know from the Biochar Listserv that the Indonesia system has a very controversial element concerning "fuel efficiency" vs "energy efficiency".”<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">I don’t think it is ‘very controversial’. It is a matter of what question was asked. If people want to know the energy efficiency, ask for that. If people want to know the fuel efficiency, ditto. If people want to know the heat transfer efficiency, ask and ye shall receive.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">What has been<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>so</i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>misleading is the reporting of energy efficiency as the fuel efficiency. This has been accomplished by the mechanism of turning the energy theoretically made available from a mass of burned or semi-burned fuel and converting it to a ‘dry fuel equivalent’ mass of raw fuel of the type used in the test.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">First, that means it is only comparable with other tests in which the fuel was the same. Second, it misrepresents (badly, in the case of char-making TLUD’s) the fuel consumption.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">In the case where, as per UNFCCC interests in stopping the unsustainable harvesting of biomass fuels, the amount of fuel needed to operate the stove per day is no lower than the baseline, we cannot have people claiming the stove uses less, where ‘less’ means the dry fuel mass equivalent of the energy theoretically released by the fire, instead of the actual fuel consumption.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">In the case of the CSI-Indonesia Pilot, there was a clear call for ‘fuel saving’ meaning it has to consume less fuel, not less energy and the same amount of fuel. Or more fuel. Thus the method applied reflects the goals of the programme. This can hardly be surprising.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">What is really surprising to people funding stove programmes is that they have been told a stove saves ‘fuel’ when it is saving ‘energy’ as they assume that is the same thing. Clearly, it is not if the stove saves energy abut uses more fuel than the open fire. The ‘controversy’ is not that the calculation is made properly, it is that many funders have been hoodwinked into funding stoves that don’t save fuel when they thought that is what they were paying for.<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Regards<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Crispin<o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0mm 0mm;"><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: windowtext;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Paul Anderson<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Monday, November 24, 2014 4:14 PM<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[Stoves] Standards for stoves - discussion Re: The Clean Stove Initiative (CSI) Forum<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear Stovers,<br><br>Strike it rich!!!! I went to the CSI website (link is in the message below) and went browsing. I stumbled upon this document:<br><br><a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-10999" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-10999</a> that is entitled:<br><br>2014-10-15 Seminar Video Recording: RBF Pilots on Promoting Clean Stoves in China and Indonesia<br><br>On October 15 this year, while the working groups on standards were meeting in Guatemala, a Power Point presentation was recorded by CSI and it is now available to be seen. Length is almost 1 hr 12 minutes. Not all is great listening. But much is quite informative.<br><br>OF SPECIAL NOTE is the discussion starting at 56:21 about how stoves are being evaluated in Indonesia. We knew about these standards months ago when Indonesia requested applicant stoves for evaluation for inclusion in the national pilot program. But in this document it became clearer to me. See the presentation, but here are some highlights:<br><br>1. At 58:00 minutes: See photos of 15 of the 22 entries (17 accepted for testing). Many are easily recognized. Seems like 3 or 4 have fans; one has a chimney, TLUDs and rocket stoves are included.<br><br>2. The timetable of the Indonesia program calls for the next round of results (finalists?) to be announced in November. If they are on schedule, we hope to hear the results publicly by mid-December. I hope somebody reports it to the Stoves Listserv.<br><br>3. The testing criteria have ratings of 1, 2, and 3 Stars. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Well worth the time to view this documentation.<br><br>4. The speaker also mentions that this evaluation system was being considered (probably not seen for the first time) by the Working Group on Stove Standards in Guatemala. No wonder there is discussion about Tiers and WBT, because there is at least one set of alternative measurements / methods. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Clearly none of this is confidential information exclusive to the working group members. It is all out in front of us on the Internet, if we just find it and call it to the attention of those who read our Stoves Listserv.<br><br>I also know from the Biochar Listserv that the Indonesia system has a very controversial element concerning "fuel efficiency" vs "energy efficiency". Specifically, the char-making stoves (mainly TLUDs) are given zero credit for the energy value (or other value as a different fuel) of any resultant charcoal produced. The wood is no longer wood if it has become charcoal, so fuel-wood efficiency is going to be lowered even if the net-energy-used efficiency is more favorable. To me, that remains an item for discussion, but charcoal production will hurt the TLUD stoves in the context of the Indonesian testing. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Note: With transparency and fair play for all, I will point out the the WB CSI (like the GACC) has not done, in my opinion, a very good job of utilizing the Stoves Listserv as a means of informing these "Stovers" about its efforts. Sure the websites are there, but please help us out a bit to better appreciate your content.<br><br>And Stovers, when you find interesting sites and specifics, please inform us all. I have hardly scratched the surface of what is on these well-made and informative websites. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>If anyone has knowledge of other "stove testing standards" that should be considered, please mention them to the Listserv.<br><br>Paul<br><br><o:p></o:p></div><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">www.drtlud.com</a><o:p></o:p></pre><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On 11/13/2014 6:29 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Stovers</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">If you haven’t done so already, I recommend checking out a useful resource on sustainable stoves:<a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions</a>. This is a website run by the World Bank Group Clean Stove Initiative aiming to provide both knowledge products and a discussion forum for working professionals in this field, in two languages.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You can access categories of information on clean cooking and heating solutions (click<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions/projects/knowledge-hub/content" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">here</a>) or join ongoing discussions on various aspects of the issue (click<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions/projects/discussion-forum" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">here</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for English and<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions/projects/iniciativa-de-estufas-limpias-en-centroam%C3%A9rica?invite=false" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">here</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>for Spanish).</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">To learn more about the initiative please contact Ms.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="mailto:xlu1@worldbank.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">Xuege Lu</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>at for details.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks for your interest!</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Crispin</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: rgb(149, 79, 114); text-decoration: underline;">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote><div style="margin: 0mm 0mm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>