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Dear Masungu</div>
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Jambo. </div>
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What you are doing works very well as a determination of relative fuel consumption. It is called an uncontrolled cooking test (UCT) and is much favoured by me and a few others including Omar Masera in Mexico. We have both developed formal versions of such a
test. </div>
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There is only one warning to heed: on occasion, the saving in fuel is so large or the stove so convenient that the users change their behaviour and cook differently, especially longer, if they have the new and better stove available. </div>
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The question is a matter of attribution. If someone uses the new stove and it saves 50% of the fuel, and that user 'spends' half of that saving (25%) on additional cooking (like warming food) the question arises, what is the stove's performance? Does it save
25% or 50%?</div>
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The answer is that the stove saves 50%. The user saves only 25% because they changed their behaviour. </div>
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We therefore have a serious question before us: who is asking the question about performance and what do they want to know? Maybe their programme encouraged the behaviour change! The 'measurement' is of the net impact of a programme, not a stove. Household
management training also saves fuel. </div>
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The KPT is not a stove test, it is a good way to test people in a home with a stove. Saying it is a stove test is misleading because it doesn't measure stove performance, it measures the consumption of fuel by a family. Suppose the new stoves allows for a change
in behaviour? How is this captured and analysed? </div>
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Where fuel supply is severely stressed there is something called 'suppressed demand'. It means even if they have an really improved stove, they will not use less fuel because they are already using less than they desperately need. An example of such a place
is the Lesoho Highlands or refugee camps. A KPT is 'correctible'. It sometimes measures the wrong thing so could have instructions to detect and deal with behaviour change. </div>
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A CCT, apart from the bad math in it, measures performance for a particular meal, not average performance. One might deliberately or accidentally tune the stove to perform well with a particular type of meal. A CCT is correctible. It could have the math fixed
and be conducted over multiple meal types and sizes. The result would be a reasonable prediction of future performance. At the moment it does not do that. </div>
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A WBT based on either the VITA or Aprovecho-Berkeley tests is so conceptually and mathematically deficient it's 'outputs' bear little relationship to actual performance doing anything. This is widely admitted by all in the accompanying texts - it is a 'lab
test' whatever that means. It doesn't predict performance in use. What then does it predict? A performance test is a model of behaviour. If the model can't predict performance, get another model. </div>
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Think about any other 'lab test'. Do you think that engineers building bridges would be permitted to select bridge designs based on lab test methods known to have little relationship to the performance of real bridges? Road uses would complain each time they
drove into the river. </div>
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So why don't stove users complain when someone sells them a 'bridge' that falls down? Well, they do. They go back to using the old 'bridge' and carry on with their day. </div>
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In your circumstances you are doing the best that you can with the tools you have available. Carry on!</div>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin</div>
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<div><b>From: </b>Musungu Wycliffe Nabutola</div>
<div><b>Sent: </b>Wednesday, November 26, 2014 08:23</div>
<div><b>To: </b>'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</div>
<div><b>Reply To: </b>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</div>
<div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] Standards for stoves - discussion Re: The Clean Stove Initiative (CSI) Forum</div>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Dear Crispin,</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">We have been using the weighing wood method to determine the wood saving that is realised by the stove user. Our method was very simple, weigh the wood
before the identified stove user actually cooks on the old stove. Weigh the wood after cooking to determine how much wood was used. This is done for 7days. To give an average figure for a specific food type cooking. After that the stove is constructed and
when ready to use another series of measurements are taken to determine the amount used by the new stove. The difference between the two weights is the saving being experienced by the new stove.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Thanks.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Musungu Wycliffe.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Reecon</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"; color:windowtext"> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 25 November 2014 00:36<br>
<b>To:</b> 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Standards for stoves - discussion Re: The Clean Stove Initiative (CSI) Forum</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Dear Paul and All</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">“</span><span lang="EN-CA">I also know from the Biochar Listserv that the Indonesia system has a very controversial element concerning "fuel
efficiency" vs "energy efficiency".”</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">I don’t think it is ‘very controversial’. It is a matter of what question was asked. If people want to know the energy efficiency, ask for that. If people want to know the fuel efficiency, ditto. If people want to know
the heat transfer efficiency, ask and ye shall receive.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">What has been <i>so</i> misleading is the reporting of energy efficiency as the fuel efficiency. This has been accomplished by the mechanism of turning the energy theoretically made available from a mass of burned or
semi-burned fuel and converting it to a ‘dry fuel equivalent’ mass of raw fuel of the type used in the test.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">First, that means it is only comparable with other tests in which the fuel was the same. Second, it misrepresents (badly, in the case of char-making TLUD’s) the fuel consumption.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">In the case where, as per UNFCCC interests in stopping the unsustainable harvesting of biomass fuels, the amount of fuel needed to operate the stove per day is no lower than the baseline, we cannot have people claiming
the stove uses less, where ‘less’ means the dry fuel mass equivalent of the energy theoretically released by the fire, instead of the actual fuel consumption.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">In the case of the CSI-Indonesia Pilot, there was a clear call for ‘fuel saving’ meaning it has to consume less fuel, not less energy and the same amount of fuel. Or more fuel. Thus the method applied reflects the goals
of the programme. This can hardly be surprising.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">What is really surprising to people funding stove programmes is that they have been told a stove saves ‘fuel’ when it is saving ‘energy’ as they assume that is the same thing. Clearly, it is not if the stove saves energy
abut uses more fuel than the open fire. The ‘controversy’ is not that the calculation is made properly, it is that many funders have been hoodwinked into funding stoves that don’t save fuel when they thought that is what they were paying for.</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Regards</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:windowtext"> Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Anderson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 24, 2014 4:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> [Stoves] Standards for stoves - discussion Re: The Clean Stove Initiative (CSI) Forum</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang="EN-CA">Dear Stovers,<br>
<br>
Strike it rich!!!! I went to the CSI website (link is in the message below) and went browsing. I stumbled upon this document:<br>
<br>
<a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-10999">https://collaboration.worldbank.org/docs/DOC-10999</a> that is entitled:<br>
<br>
2014-10-15 Seminar Video Recording: RBF Pilots on Promoting Clean Stoves in China and Indonesia<br>
<br>
On October 15 this year, while the working groups on standards were meeting in Guatemala, a Power Point presentation was recorded by CSI and it is now available to be seen. Length is almost 1 hr 12 minutes. Not all is great listening. But much is quite
informative.<br>
<br>
OF SPECIAL NOTE is the discussion starting at 56:21 about how stoves are being evaluated in Indonesia. We knew about these standards months ago when Indonesia requested applicant stoves for evaluation for inclusion in the national pilot program. But in
this document it became clearer to me. See the presentation, but here are some highlights:<br>
<br>
1. At 58:00 minutes: See photos of 15 of the 22 entries (17 accepted for testing). Many are easily recognized. Seems like 3 or 4 have fans; one has a chimney, TLUDs and rocket stoves are included.<br>
<br>
2. The timetable of the Indonesia program calls for the next round of results (finalists?) to be announced in November. If they are on schedule, we hope to hear the results publicly by mid-December. I hope somebody reports it to the Stoves Listserv.<br>
<br>
3. The testing criteria have ratings of 1, 2, and 3 Stars. <br>
<br>
Well worth the time to view this documentation.<br>
<br>
4. The speaker also mentions that this evaluation system was being considered (probably not seen for the first time) by the Working Group on Stove Standards in Guatemala. No wonder there is discussion about Tiers and WBT, because there is at least one set
of alternative measurements / methods. <br>
<br>
Clearly none of this is confidential information exclusive to the working group members. It is all out in front of us on the Internet, if we just find it and call it to the attention of those who read our Stoves Listserv.<br>
<br>
I also know from the Biochar Listserv that the Indonesia system has a very controversial element concerning "fuel efficiency" vs "energy efficiency". Specifically, the char-making stoves (mainly TLUDs) are given zero credit for the energy value (or other
value as a different fuel) of any resultant charcoal produced. The wood is no longer wood if it has become charcoal, so fuel-wood efficiency is going to be lowered even if the net-energy-used efficiency is more favorable. To me, that remains an item for
discussion, but charcoal production will hurt the TLUD stoves in the context of the Indonesian testing.
<br>
<br>
Note: With transparency and fair play for all, I will point out the the WB CSI (like the GACC) has not done, in my opinion, a very good job of utilizing the Stoves Listserv as a means of informing these "Stovers" about its efforts. Sure the websites are
there, but please help us out a bit to better appreciate your content.<br>
<br>
And Stovers, when you find interesting sites and specifics, please inform us all. I have hardly scratched the surface of what is on these well-made and informative websites.
<br>
<br>
If anyone has knowledge of other "stove testing standards" that should be considered, please mention them to the Listserv.<br>
<br>
Paul</span></p>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD </span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> </span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></span></pre>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-CA">On 11/13/2014 6:29 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:</span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Dear Stovers</span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">If you haven’t done so already, I recommend checking out a useful resource on sustainable stoves:
<a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions">
https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions</a>. This is a website run by the World Bank Group Clean Stove Initiative aiming to provide both knowledge products and a discussion forum for working professionals in this field,
in two languages. </span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">You can access categories of information on clean cooking and heating solutions (click
<a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions/projects/knowledge-hub/content">
here</a>) or join ongoing discussions on various aspects of the issue (click <a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions/projects/discussion-forum">
here</a> for English and <a href="https://collaboration.worldbank.org/groups/clean-cooking-and-heating-solutions/projects/iniciativa-de-estufas-limpias-en-centroam%C3%A9rica?invite=false">
here</a> for Spanish). </span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D"> </span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">To learn more about the initiative please contact Ms.
<a href="mailto:xlu1@worldbank.org">Xuege Lu</a> at for details.</span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
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<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Thanks for your interest!</span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
<p class="x_MsoNormal"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; color:#1F497D">Crispin</span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
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<pre><span lang="EN-CA">_______________________________________________</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">Stoves mailing list</span></pre>
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<pre><span lang="EN-CA">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA"><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA"><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:</span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA"><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></span></pre>
<pre><span lang="EN-CA"> </span></pre>
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