<html><head></head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;"><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Dear Paul</div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">As always your questions are spot on. Thanks for being a seeker after truth. </div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The use of domestic stoves for production of sugar from palm flower say takes in about 80% of homes that have palm trees on the property. It is daily cash income. The cooking time is about 4 to 8 hrs per day. </div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Many other homes make fried 'crisp' type products - very popular everywhere. </div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Stoves are considered 'production equipment. That is why people are picky about what a stove can do - it has to be much more than cooking dinner. This information is only obtainable by gathering anthropological information. This is used to create a burn cycle of 'typical behaviour' so a lab test can be used to predict performance. </div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">The calculation of the heat content of fuel burned is straightforward and we'll understood. The problem for realistic testing is to handle the fire realistically. </div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><br></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">In the Indonesian testing we asked manufacturers if the products could use fuel that was left over from the last fire (assuming of course that there was preceding fire and that it was extinguished and usable fuel remained.)</div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">So the TLUD manufacturers replied that yes, the stoves could burn non-charcoaled fuel. We were then duty-bound to test them that way. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">It turns out that the stoves were all able to cook for far longer than the 63 minute test cycle. Think about what a big change this is compared with 4 years ago when 20 minutes was considered the limit. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">So we fill the stoves and run the cycle. The stove is then emptied and reusable fuel recovered for the next test. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">Thus there is some old fuel and new raw fuel in the stove. The new fuel is dried, burned, and charred, partly. The old fuel is further dried, burned and charred, partly. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">In order to know what the fuel energy, all the ins and outs are calculated. However to know the fuel consumption, we need to measure the total new raw fuel needed per burn cycle because that is what the stove requires. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">It would be unfair to determine the heat in the gases burned without considering that the char was NOT burned. It would be unfair to determine the fuel consumption without considering the mass of raw fuel needed for each cooking session, regardless of whether or not it gets burned. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">And there is the current crisis (and it is a crisis). The original 1982 VITA test made the conceptual mistake of assuming that the energy released by the fire was related directly to the fuel mass consumed. It was never true, but the effect on ratings if the mass of char is about the same for all fires in all stoves. Obviously this is no longer true, even if it once was. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">The crisis is people are trading money for fuel savings that are not being measured correctly (or at all). I once said here that the WBT4.8 'didn't measure the fuel consumption'. Jim Jetter replied with a contradiction. Well, where is the fuel consumption of a TLUD gasifier reported in the metrics of a WBT?</span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">Nowhere. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">And that is a problem. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">Back to the heating value of the gases in your gasifiers, it is the effective heating value of what was burned. Turning that into an equivalent mass of any particular dry fuel tells us nothing about the fuel consumption. </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"><br></span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">Regards </span></div><div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><span style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;">Crispin </span></div> <table width="100%" style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"> <div id="_persistentHeader" style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in; font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate Pro'; font-size: 10pt;"> <div><b>F</b></div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(186, 188, 209); border-top-width: 1pt; font-size: initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"></div><br><div id="_originalContent" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Crispin,<br>
<br>
Your reply is appreciated.<br>
<br>
1. I meant to say that only one star IN EACH CATEGORY is
needed. That is a good system.<br>
<br>
2. Crispin wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><span style="line-height: initial;">Some
80% of households use their domestic cooking stove to earn
money. Far more fuel is burned per day than just the cooking
needs. If the charcoal market existed (it doesn't) they could
produce lots of it from biomass presently burned to get rid of
it (like Kaliandra). </span></blockquote>
Please provide any documentation about how that 80% number was
determined. I think that eaaaaaven 50% would be high, and would
be a favorable indicator for improving cookstoves to obtain lower
operating costs and cleaner emissions related to income earning.<br>
<br>
The LACK of a charcoal market in an environment of abundant
biomass is interesting but probably not unique. And perhaps the
volcanic soils of Indonesia would not benefit much from biochar.
This could become a separate discussion topic some day.<br>
<br>
3. I am curious about the calculation of the energy content in a
kg of biomass fuel. The example discussed is the Albasia pellet,
but the calculation method could be applied to other biomass.
Much of DRY woody biomass is stated to have 16 to 18 MJ/kg. But
if it is to be "de-rated" (or adjusted) to approx 12 MJ/kg, (and
not just because of moisture content) that would have major impact
on all subsequent calculations of efficiencies. I read your
explanation:
<blockquote type="cite">Because the additional work of removing
moist
&n
bsp; &nbs
p;
ure and volatiles from raw fuel to make char, the effective
heating power of a 'missing kg of fuel' is only 12 and a bit MJ.
That is not the heating power of the pyrolysis gases because
some of the carbon is burned. It is the net heat released with
everything considered. </blockquote>
For purposes of having valid comparable test results, I am glad
that the system in Indonesia is uniformly applied to all of the
stoves. But for purposes of comparison with any other testing
methods (or even to question the MJ/kg adjustment itself), the
adjustment is still not clear to me. Not that I matter. I
would be happy if others are in agreement with the method in
Indonesia. I hope that this calculation is further explained and
openly discussed.<br>
<br>
Paul<br><pre cols="72"><br name="BB10" caretmarkerset="INVALID" class="markedForCaretMarkerRemoval"></pre></div>
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