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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Crispin,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>In a ND TLDD there will always be a battle between
the downward moving air and the hot combustion gasses which will be inclined to
rise. I am thinking that gasses cannot go both directions in the
same space, so will there be areas in the fuel where the air will win and areas
where the hot gasses will win? This could lead to the buoyancy caused
convection you mention, with the heavier air displacing the hot gasses, pushing
them upward. Could this unevenness be caused by local
resistance variations to gas flow in the fuel? Or might it be a
temperature thing where the air wins in cooler areas and the hot gasses win
in hotter areas? Or am I totally off base here?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=crispinpigott@outlook.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>
</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, 2014 4:14
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Correcting a
misconception that approaches myth status</DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear
Kirk</DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Within
the small spaces between lumps of fuel there is normal buoyancy for the hot
air or hot gases so it circulates and convects heat upwards, no matter what
the direction of the burn. Generally for very dry biomass this is a problem
with a DD stove if an attempt is made at the same time to make char. Either it
'cooks' a lot of fuel at once making wet gas or it races through it and is not
able to properly pyrolyse the fuel. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Consider
this: in a TLUD with a very low flow of primary air, or with damp fuel, or a
combination of the two, there is a real possibility it just stops pyrolyzing.
It is a limit. The problem is the heat radiated (and a small amount conducted)
downwards is not enough to sustain a continuous reaction. Taking those
identical conditions and flipping it upside down one finds the pyrolysis
continues because more heat, under the same conditions, rises into the fuel
bed. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">At
the other extreme is the high gasification rate. If the fuel is really dry and
full of oxygen it can burn quite well with no air at all. This was reported in
the news a couple of months ago in Colorado whereby the roots underground kept
burning long after the forest fire was 'out'. It makes charcoal doing this. It
does it with a combination of water gas shift reaction and combusting the O2
in the carbohydrates. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Well,
in a DD burner this situation arises pretty easily if the gap size is right.
When the condition arises and the fuel is setting itself alight upward and
uncontrollably, turn it upside down. It turns into a TLUD with the heat rising
away from the new fuel. That is a second limit. </DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><BR></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">So
depending on whether you want to make char, make gas and not, burn all
the <SPAN>fuel in one go, use low or high density fuel, high or low
moisture, and importantly, high or low Oxygen content, you choose the burner
that is best suited to the range of conditions anticipated. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>Consider:
suppose you want to run a higher air flow rate in the physical space available
and the fuel is relatively dry and you want to make char. A DD stove would
give a good yield and work well in those conditions. An UD would in the same
conditions burn much more of the char. I hope that is explanation
enough. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>On
another note don't worry about Paul and me yelling ultimatums at each other.
We know each other very well and have cooperated for years. He is enthusiastic
which I appreciate but sometimes gets things askew. People think we are overly
hostile but it is OK - he will tell you the same thing. We communicate
frequently and he is a guy I can count on to want things done right.
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>As
things stand, Paul put a decade into TLUD investigation and I put it into BLDD
work. I am going to post a few small pictures showing the movement of the MPF
vertically in a DD stove fuel hopper. A significant advantage of a DD
combustor is that the secondary combustion can be maintained directly next to
the pyrolysed fuel because the fuel is always falling against the grate. It
means the combustion is very stable once it is running. It doesn't change for
hours on end. This is very well suited to process heating and home heating.
Cooking is more difficult. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>With
a TLUD cooking is easier and and space heating for a long time is difficult
because of the refuelling. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>I
have seen drawings for a Russian combustor the fed fuel into a conical TLUD
fire that was continuous, burning on a round steel plate that rotated slowly.
It could do what a DD burner does in terms of long term
burns. </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>Regards </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN>Crispin
</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
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name="BB10"></SPAN></DIV><BR>
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Crispin,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I have been following your insights as you have
shared them with us. I value what you are saying. I like your
earlier statement that the pipe is a solution for a problem that should not
exist in the first place. If my stove was providing adiquate air
and mixing then my Wonderwerk Strata combustor would have no effect. It
would not be necessary.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Reading through this responce to Dr. Anderson I
can follow your logic until I get to the last paragraph. I do not
disagree with you, I just wonder how it works. The heat of pyrolysis
rises through the fuel in a BLDD, heating the fuel and driving out
moisture. I wonder what the mechanism is for this raising heat in a down
draft stove. Is the gas not moving down, carrying the heat
downward? Heat is a property of material, not material itself, and so it
is independent of gravity and buoyancy. The only mechanism I can see for
heat to move upward is radiant heat, just like a TLUD MPF radiates heat
downward. I would like to know more about how this works. I
mean no contention here, I just want to know.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thank you,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=crispinpigott@outlook.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, December 15, 2014 12:39
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Correcting a
misconception that approaches myth status</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Dear
Paul<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">You
can’t just jump in with such classifications without asking first.
<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>>…</SPAN></B>In 2004 - 05 I re-named it Top Lit UpDraft (TLUD)
which is also not totally accurate. None of the names
acknowledge the Migratory Pyrolytic Front (MPF) that is the dominant feature
of what is commonly called TLUD micro-gasification.<BR><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
think you should have a look at a BLDD working and watch the migratory
pyrolytic front rising through the fuel instead of descending into it. You
might change your opinion.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR>Note:<BR>A DD gasifier is ignited at the BOTTOM, and
the fire (hot zone of gasification) REMAINS at the bottom, and the unit can
be operated with continuous fuel entry into the top.<BR><BR><SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">No
that is not necessarily true at all! One could make the same claim for
<I>all</I> top lit stoves with a high superficial air velocity. In a
BLDD there is a gas production process started by a fire at the bottom. Same
as TLUD. There is a migratory pyrolytic front that works its way
upwards. Same as a TLUD. When it reaches the top, there is a fuel chamber
full of char, same as a TLUD. The gas produced can be burned immediately
under the grate or taken elsewhere to be burned in a gas burner. Same as a
TLUD.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR>A IDD or TLUD or MPF gasifier is ignited at the TOP,
and the fire (hot zone of gasification) slowly MOVES to the bottom, after
which time the fire zone stays at the bottom and the unit operates as if it
were a regular UpDraft (UD) gasifier if anyone puts more fuel into the
top. <BR><BR>Fundamentally different.<SPAN
style="COLOR: #1f497d"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Again,
no. It is the same! When the migratory pyrolytic front reaches the top
of a BLDD fuel chamber the combustion continues at the top drafting air in
(if allowed) and does exactly what you describe but upside down. The <I>big
difference</I> is that the BLDD can be refuelled by placing more fuel on top
and the MPF continues to work its way into the new fuel, upwards, until it
again reaches the fully charred condition.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR>Because of Tom Reed and also Paal Wendelbo who worked
totally independently, we have something new for cookstoves.
They did not invent pyrolysis. They were not the first people to
have a fire in a barrel making gases and have the flames only up at the top
where secondary air was available. (I saw that in the 1950s in a
burn barrel at my home.) But Reed and Wendelbo were the ones who CONTROLLED
it and understood it and made it all small enough to be useful in a
cookstove. And the rest is history. And TLUD history
is still being made.<BR><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><BR>That
may all be true, but the BLDD stoves with MPF have been in use literally for
centuries. BLDD combustors with large fuel chambers were used for making
coal gas and the only way a useful gas can be created is by having a MPF in
the fuel bed. Obviously it was controlled or they would not have been able
to get a reliable product.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">A
TLUD is a bottom-lit downdraft stove turned upside down so that can’t be
refuelled. Deal with it.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">The
only practical difference is that the heat from pyrolysis in a DD stove
rises within the fuel supply, heating it and driving out moisture sooner
than it would in a TLUD where the heat all rises, save by radiation. There
is an advantage to this with coal or wet charcoal or wet wood. Otherwise,
not really any practical difference. I find that with a BLDD and wood
pellets, for example, the airflow velocity through the interstitial spaces
becomes more important in a DD stove than an UD one in order that the rising
heat does not create run-away gas generation inside the fuel bed. If too
much gas is produced it is hard to burn it all. Apart from this small
consideration, and having built lots of each, I observe no difference at all
between these architectures in terms of how the fuel is pyrolysed and the
options for burning the gas.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Regards<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P></P>
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