<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;">Paul and list + 3 ccs<div><br></div><div>see below<br><div><div>On Dec 17, 2014, at 8:17 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">
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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Ron and all,<br>
<br>
I echo and re-double your thanks to all who have saved those
earliest messages of the Stoves Listserv. AND send thanks to
those (Ron included) who wrote those messages in 1996. (even
though a strange Date of Aug 31, 2004 keeps showing in the
headers?)<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b>[RWL: The thanks for saving should presumably go to Tom Miles (paying all the bills for this list activity) and Erin Rasmussen. The 2004 date is just the day on which the old material (I thought had been permanently lost) found its way to the present site. There still are some missing messages on stoves (specifically mostly TLUD as the topic) that were on a third server before these from Feb ’96.</b></div><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<br>
About the computer modeling of TLUDs, there was a large grant
given to a group at Colorado State Univ, and they are expected
(according to Dean) to be part of the presentations at ETHOS 2015
(6 weeks from now!!). </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><b>[RWL: Yes. I have been talking to a CSU ME PhD candidate (Jessica Tryner) who has been doing some fine lab work under the same contract. There is a recent paper by she and two others [</b><span style="font-family: AdvTT5235d5a9; font-size: 15px;">Bryan D. Willson, Anthony J. Marchese] </span><b>(</b><a href="http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0973082614000817">http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0973082614000817</a>; behind a paywall). I have decided to not bother the CSU theory team until hearing them in a month at the ETHOS meeting. I get the sense that the theoretical side may not go as far as I feel possible and hope for. Jessica’s work and paper covers five different stoves. Paper title: <span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: AdvTT5235d5a9;">The effects of fuel type and stove design on emissions and ef</span><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: 'AdvTT5235d5a9+fb';">fi</span><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: AdvTT5235d5a9;">ciency of
natural-draft semi-gasi</span><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: 'AdvTT5235d5a9+fb';">fi</span><span style="font-size: 13pt; font-family: AdvTT5235d5a9;">er biomass cookstoves</span><font face="AdvTT5235d5a9"><span style="font-size: 17px;">’</span></font></div><div><br></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><font face="AdvTT5235d5a9"><span style="font-size: 15px;">Ron</span></font></div><div><b><br></b></div><div><b> </b><br><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000"><div class="moz-cite-prefix"> <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 12/16/2014 11:30 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:<br>
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<blockquote cite="mid:F9372A70-2EC1-45A3-96EF-1468D282E7F0@comcast.net" type="cite">
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<div>Dean, cc Paul, Crispin, List</div>
<div><br>
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<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.
I can support your proposal on summarizing TLUD experimental
history. But just as valuable would be a computer modelling RFP
(presumably from GACC, so I add Ranyee as a new cc). There are
hundreds of biomass combustion/gasification/pyrolysis folk out
there who could bring highly sophisticated computer programs to
bear right away. Finally the stove community has the money to
do this. A TLUD has to be much easier to computer-simulate
than any other stove.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.
Some of the recent conversations have mentioned BLDD stoves -
of which I know not one recent example on the cooking side
(which this list is mostly about). To check that, I did a
search on several approaches that grew out of the excellent
Dutch work on BLDD stoves - and in particular by a Dutch
transplant to Australia - Dr. Pet Verhaart. I was amazed to
find that Tom Miles or daughter Erin Rasmussen must have found
the early records of this list beginning in 1996, which I
thought had been lost (see <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.bioenergylists.org/newsgroup-archive/stoves/1996-February.htm">http://www.bioenergylists.org/newsgroup-archive/stoves/1996-February.htm</a> for
the first month history). If anyone knows some earlier
communications on TLUDs on a different (but still Tom Miles)
list, I hope they can report where they are.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3.
I suggest to Dean that this above source should be part of the
“progress history. In that first month, we had contributions
from Mark Bryden and Kirk Smith (but not on TLUDs), which I had
not recalled. Heavy participation in that first month from
Piet’s colleagues (Prasad, Moerman, etc) as well from Eindhoeven
- especially on BLDD cook stoves. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>4.
I have mentioned the name Tom Duke several times on this list -
an Iowa farmer - who did several experiments (and one of the few
lauding char-making stoves in that first month) that I have not
seen repeated since - claiming good results even with zero-cost
TLUDs. I’m sorry we have lost contact with Tom. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>5.
I hope to read March 1996 in the near future; by the end of
February, we had not yet found agreement that TLUDs would work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks to Tom or Erin for finding this historical resource.
And to those discussing BLDD stoves - which caused me to find
what I thought had been lost.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Dec 16, 2014, at 2:00 PM, Dean Still <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">deankstill@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Dear Paul and Crispin,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>My hope is that someone will do the experiments to
detail how the work with TLUDs, etc has resulted in
progress and publish the results in a peer reviewed
journal. It might take a while but it's a job worth doing.
Maybe find an interested student or professor to instruct?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dean</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 7:42 AM,
Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:
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<div>Stovers,<br>
<br>
This is about Crispin's story and showing slow
progress, but it is progress. <br>
<br>
On 12/16/2014 12:51 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span><div><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span><br class="webkit-block-placeholder"></div><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">There
are dozens of ways to make a stove work
improperly. Paul and I have tried all of them,
I think. Paul told me that a TLUD fuelled with
wood could not be refuelled. We were on the
back patio of my home in Ezulwini Valley in
Swaziland and he went off to do something,
leaving a small TLUD can-stove running,. I fed
in some wood vertically and it worked just
fine. I continued to do so and it continued to
run long after it should have gone out. Thus I
proved to myself (and Paul) that TLUD’s can be
refuelled but not too much at a time. OK, that
was valuable and contradicted received wisdom.
<br>
</span></p>
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</blockquote>
His story is correct. I remember it well (now that I
have been reminded). But it also tells us something
about the progression of our science. <br>
<br>
Back then, the importance of the MPF (Migratory
Pyrolytic Front) had not been realized. What Crispin
did then in 2002 was what BP-Oorja, Biolite and
Philips and others did years later. They were all
trickle feeding additional fuel into the TLUD well
above the pyrolytic zone. Heat from below was (and
still is, if you do it) sufficient to pyrolyze the new
fuel by heat WITHOUT the small flames of the pyrolytic
front at that fuel. The char can be fine, but
probably a little different (not made at the higher
temperatures of the MPF). <br>
<br>
And when the MPF reached the bottom, and with new fuel
placed on top of the char (not into the hot zone), the
unit switched over to operating with Bottom Burning
(BB) as a rather normal UpDraft gasifier. And that
leads to higher temperatures in the bottom (air coming
onto charcoal) and the need for the different
materials (cast iron, ceramics, special metals) to
protect that hot zone.<br>
<br>
As I have written in "Micro-gasification Terminology:
An Instructional Summary of MG", available at my
website. See: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/micro-gasification-terminology-14nov2013.pdf" target="_blank">http://www.drtlud.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/micro-gasification-terminology-14nov2013.pdf</a>
<br>
<blockquote type="cite">Therefore, there are actually
two types of TLUD (device name) gasifiers, one being
TLUD-MPF and the other being TLUD-BB. The two types
are quite distinctive in operation, and deserve
separate recognition and study. The common usage of
the “TLUD” name today means more than the TL of
“Top-Lit” can signify. ...... snip ... In essence,
TLUD is a name for the small updraft gasifier
processes/stoves and is not a description of what
process (MPF or BB) is actually happening. However,
we expect that in common usage, the TLUD name will
designate TLUD-MPF, unless the UD-BB mode is
specified.</blockquote>
However, many people continue to ignore the transition
from MPF to BB. Back in 2002 I had no clue about
this. Now I consider it essential knowledge for
understanding the variations within micro-gasification
technology. (Note that I wrote "micro-gasification
technology" and not "TLUD technology.")<br>
<br>
I repeat:
<blockquote type="cite">However, we expect that in
common usage, the TLUD name will designate TLUD-MPF,
unless the UD-BB mode is specified.</blockquote>
Of course I can only suggest and request. People
will do what they want to do, sometimes unfortunately.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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