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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Sam and all,<br>
<br>
Thanks for the set of slides. They give us the various topics,
each of which merits separate discussion. <br>
<br>
And also those topics taken together are a significant topic that
could be called "gaming the WBT". <br>
<br>
The Stove community needs to highly alert about "gaming the
WBT." [I want to avoid any more use of the word "cheat" because
it implies dishonesty. There is no dishonesty when the rules are
not clear.] <br>
<br>
When somebody plays a game (poker, baseball, billiards, keeping
your income taxes low, etc.), they try to win as best they can.
And they only need to stay within the rules. And that is why the
tax officials make so many rules, and why drugs are prohibited in
sports, etc. But for stove testing, the rules are still being
written. Yes, there are even different versions in different
countries. Nobody is cheating, but some are seriously gaming the
system.<br>
<br>
Note that it would be dishonest to intentionally make the rules
(Stove Testing Protocols) unclear so that some could have more
advantages than others. In this regard, those who are doing the
standards might need to put more attention to this. But we need
to be careful that a push to close loopholes (such as using
different quantities of water) does not push the testing to be
even more unnatural than it already unfortunately is.<br>
<br>
One example from the pre-GACC and pre-PCIA era (that is, back in
2004 - 2007 ancient past):<br>
The initial stove testing was virtually only being done at
Aprovecho where Tami Bond and Dale Andreatta and others were
setting up the equipment during the summer stove camps. Some
rules were needed. 5 liters of water were specified. But in
order to have comparability between stoves, the fuel was also
specified. It was the kiln-dried, square-sided sticks. They
worked well for the Rocket stoves, evenly spaced and slowly pushed
it. But that fuel was a headache to the just-budding TLUD
stoves!!! <br>
<br>
I never want to see the specifications become so locked in as at
that time. And that is why I find Sam's Slide #6 to be so
interesting. It says that gaming can be done by those who "Use
regular cut wood." How much still today is the laboratory
testing of rocket stove being conducted with "regular cut wood"?
80% is my guess, but even if only 30%, that could be too much,
especially if the reported results of Tier accomplishments are
coming from those tests, while ignoring the tests with other
fuels.<br>
<br>
Final comments for today: Stoves do not conduct gaming. People
conduct gaming.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 2/13/2015 5:48 PM, Samuel Bentson wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:C19A7C65-5C43-4DD3-9636-DF9445B84835@aprovecho.org"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Hi Paul,
I chose that title to garner interest. It worked! The point is to show how to better standardize the WBT, and in case that is not possible, to show how to be aware of how the results can be manipulated or misunderstood. Here are the slides I threw together in a few minutes after deciding not to do my original talk. It’s mainly just some headings. We’re working on a paper that goes into detail about the water quantity used, it also talks about the temperature of the water during simmer, and the firepower used to bring the water to boil. You’re right that the quantity of water influences the emissions metrics. The current WBT does have some language about not comparing tests that were conducted with different amounts of water, but it is vague. I wasn’t aware of it when I gave the talk and I don’t think other testers I have spoken to are aware of it.
Sam
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<pre wrap="">
On Feb 13, 2015, at 2:59 PM, Paul Anderson <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a> wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">To all,
Thanks, Elisa, for the full program. I note two things, for comments later.
1. I do not see the name nor topic of Jessica Tryner of CSU, but she did present and she will be sending me a copy of the presentation, which will also appear at the Website, as Elisa has stated. When I have that presentation, I will send comments.
2. The topic of Sam Bentson's presentation is "How to cheat the WBT." I do not like the title because the word "cheat" is too value loaded. Maybe "manipulate the WBT" or "modify assumptions about the WBT" or maybe " How changing some variables of the WBT can result in more favorable results." The procedures are not changed, but some variables can be changed, and there is no requirement to report the changed variables when claiming Tier levels.
Whatever the name might be, I am interested in the content of Sam's presentation. Anyone who attended, please list out that variables that were mentioned. And Sam can be sending comments also, so we do not need to wait for the materials to be at the website.
We who attended do know one of the variables, because Dean Still clearly discussed it in his Keynote presentation. Dean discussed the impact of using 9 liters of water instead of 5 L in the WBT, to accomplish Tier 4 level of efficiencies. And that change might have impacted CO and PM reading also, but that was not stated.
When we have more information, we can have a more full discussion. Please use new Subject lines that are specific to the topics of discussion.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
On 2/13/2015 4:09 PM, Derby, Elisa wrote:
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Here it is. If anyone sees any errors let me know-- this and all the presentations will be posted on the ETHOS website soon!
Best,
Elisa
-----Original Message-----
From:
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu">ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</a> [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu">mailto:ethos-bounces@vrac.iastate.edu</a>
] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2015 10:57 AM
To: ETHOS - Listserve; Stoves and biofuels network; Sam Bentson;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:marchese@colostate.edu">marchese@colostate.edu</a>
Subject: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015
Dear all,
At the recent ETHOS 2015 conference there were some presentations added
after the printing of the schedule.
1. Where is a copy of the final schedule (what was actually presented.)?
2. If you were there, please let me know if you attended either of the
following two presentations that I have heard about later, but I did not
attend. Your comments or notes would be appreciated:
A. Sam Benton (of Aprovecho), speaking something about how
testing procedures can be acceptably modified/adjusted within the
testing guidelines to get higher tier results.
B. Jessica Tryner (of Colorado State Univ.) about the research on
ND semi-gasifier (TLUD) stoves.
Thanks,
Paul
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