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Dear Jock and Paul and All</div>
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This is conceptually very similar to what Dr AD Karve has been doing with the sugar cane leaves except for two things. He is using 7 barrels at a time in the fire and the gas exits the bottom of the containers (barrels) so as to use the heat for cooking the
char instead of cooking the pot. </div>
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The Karve Koncept uses the least total fuel to make the char (the primary product). The capping of the top to keep air out and heat in allows for simultaneous cooking but requires more fuel (to make the char) but has a second task to accomplish so it doesn't
matter. </div>
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In both cases the systems are able to make char from material that is hard to work with. In the second case an 'easier to burn fuel' is used to char a 'hard to burn fuel'. </div>
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When sawdust is used for cooking it is often burned using the 'central hole' drum approach with a stick forming the hole while it is packed around with sawdust. A second stick makes the side air entrance. </div>
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Cecil reports that a standard way of having that approach not have to burn at high power all the time and to reduce the smoke bursts is to put a single stick of fuel into the side hole where it provides a continuous ignition source for the gases inside. This
burns slowly and is pushed in now and then. Viewed systemically it is also a co-firing burner that uses a different fuel to maintain the production and burning of the gases. </div>
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Most practical cooking stoves have some measure of power control. As this approach is micro-tized please consider how it might be controlled up and down. For space heating it is not much of a requirement so a MPFront would suit the power requirment well. </div>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin in the Monsoon</div>
<br>
<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">Paul,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I will try to answer your questions from the perspective of a teaching tool, not a production unit.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cheers,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Jock</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="color:rgb(0,0,0); letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; word-wrap:break-word">
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Jock Gill<br class="">
P.O. Box 3<br class="">
Peacham, VT 05862<br class="">
<br class="">
+1 (802) 503-1258</div>
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Stewardship: not dominion, extraction or exploitation<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Feb 12, 2015, at 11:53 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family:ArialMT; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
To all, both Stovers and Biochar makers.<br class="">
<br class="">
I thank Marc and Jock and Kirk (and probably some others, including Peter Hirst with his barrel-size unit, on video) for their efforts with a retort can inside of a TLUD gasifier. (see some messages below). I mention the following topics for consideration.<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Where inside the TLUD is the retort can to be placed? The retort needs heat to it, but the TLUD<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><u class="">heat<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></u>INSIDE THE FUEL BED is only at the top and then
progressing slowly downward with the MPF (Migratory Pyrolytic Front), meaning that the bottom of the can does NOT get heated until the MPF is getting close.<br class="">
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>My approach is to simply place the retort can on the bottom of the empty TLUD - centered. I have the primary air come in from the sides, not the bottom, to avoid cooling of the lower portion of the retort. The top of the retort can is at about at the
level of the secondary air supply, perhaps a bit below.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Then I fill the space between the retort can and the TLUD with fuel — I use wood pellets for demos.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Start the TLUD in the usual fashion.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>When the TLUD has pyrolized the last of the pellets, the retort is left sitting in a very hot bed of charcoal that reaches part way up its sides. I allow the charcoal to continue to burn, with primary air, until the retort is finished — no more combustible
gases coming out. While the charcoal is burning, the upper part of the retort is bathed in very hot exhaust gases. Thus it is important (?) that the top of the retort can be below the cooling secondary air.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>At the end, since both the TLUD and the Retort are small, it is not difficult to extract the retort can and then dump the charcoal remaining in the TLUD into quenching water. I sometimes empty the retort into a mason jar and seal it in the usual way.
This gives me bone dry biochar. Quenching hot biochar in water gives me instantly fully saturated [hydrated] biochar - or so says Hugh. It is also safe to handle and will not spontaneously re-ignite.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Keeping the retort in the the TLUD, below the secondary air, and away from the primary air, both of which would tend to cool the retort, seems to work well.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Note: Wood pellets work well in my system. Larger grass tablets seems to be have a more difficult time transferring heat inside the retort. Perhaps part because they expand when they get hot?</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>In my educational units, the TLUD is a large coffee can from Costco - very nice steel. The resort is a 1 quart paint can - not such nice steel. BTW, you only need two or three holes in the lid of the 1 quart can to allow the gases out. I suspect this
also helps to keep heat in the retort. The escaping gases will take heat away as they exit the retort - yes?</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>I hope this helps.</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Cheers,</div>
<div><br class="">
</div>
<div>Jock</div>
<br class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family:ArialMT; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="">
Therefore, should the retort can be above the fuel level but below the entry of secondary air? Maybe not, because the can and its contents could chill the rising gases and hinder their combustion. But maybe this is not so crucial? <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Maybe the retort can is only in the upper half(?) of the TLUD fuel? <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
Or maybe this does not make much difference? <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><br class="">
<br class="">
2. I like Jock's idea of the outlet holes being upward in the retort can. He reports seeing the small jets of flame. That means that the retort gases are entering into an environment with sufficient secondary air for combustion. This also is then an
issue of the placement of the retort.<br class="">
<br class="">
Please note that instead of outlet holes there could be an outlet Channel (pipe, tube, etc) that takes the retort gases to a different place. Remember that retort gases come out in a sequence of types that start with water vapor, then mixed gases, and finally
the pyrolytic gases that are combustible. Retort processes do not occur the same way as TLUD processes.<br class="">
<br class="">
3. Placing the retort canister ABOVE the secondary air entry provides the maximum heat to the retort. Maybe it could be in the "riser" section, or up where the cooking pot would otherwise be placed. This has been done in barrel-size units by Doug Clayton
and Hugh McLaughlin and is on video. The main problem encountered is the difficulty / danger of handling full barrels well above ground level, sometimes full of hot char.<br class="">
<br class="">
4. Of course, issues of char qualities need to be considered. About putting fines (very small) biomass into retorts, it is known that the transfer of heat from the edges to the center is HINDERED if the materials are too packed together.<br class="">
<br class="">
Many of us are looking forward to further reports on this topic.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 2/12/2015 6:35 AM, Jock Gill wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family:ArialMT; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<div class="">Marc,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have also done this. I place feedstock in a smaller can that only has a few holes in its lid to allow the pyrolytic gases to escape and burn. I then place this, as you did, in a larger can used as a ND TLUD and surround the smaller can with
fuel. This creates a retort within a TLUD. The TLUD will burn some of the charcoal it has made in order to finish the pyrolysis in the inner retort can. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I find, contrary to the given wisdom, that the inner "retort" can be placed with in the TLUD with the gas escape holes facing UP. This allows students to see the gas come out and ignite. If they can see the flames created by the gas coming out
of the retort it much more powerful educational experience.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Well done,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Jock<br class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">Jock Gill</div>
<div class="">P.O. Box 3</div>
<div class="">Peacham, VT 05862</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Cell: (617) 449-8111</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="font-weight:bold; text-decoration:underline"><a href="http://google.com/+JockGill" class="">google.com/+JockGill</a></span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="" style="">:> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:</span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
Via iPad</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
On Feb 12, 2015, at 5:07 AM, Marquitusus <<a href="mailto:marquitusus@hotmail.com" class="">marquitusus@hotmail.com</a>> wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi, in the mids December I consulted the list about my problems with almond husks as TLUD's fuel.
<div class="">The problem is the smaller particles of this fuel obstruct the primary air flow and the pyrolisys stops.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Kirk suggested me using the "can method": just screening the fuel and use the smaller fraction for filling a can that will be put inside the reactor, surrounded by the large particles fraction. I recently tried this method, and it really worked!
You can see pics here: <a href="http://cuinessolars.jimdo.com/cuines/cuines-gasificadores/" target="_blank" class="" style="font-size:12pt">http://cuinessolars.jimdo.com/cuines/cuines-gasificadores/</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So, this opens the door for using any size of fuel in a ND-TLUD, from rice hulls to saw dust or any other little particles fuel ( I understand that in a FD-TLUD is not necessary, because of the forced air draft). Also, this method can allow to
shorten the size of the chimneys or risers, because less draft is necessary.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The bad news are we need a can (that is exposed to high temps that will deteriorate it) and we need to previously screen the fuel, but I think these are minor handicaps compared to the benefits it brings</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Marc</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
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<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" class="" style="font-family:ArialMT; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class="" style="font-family:ArialMT; font-size:14px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; line-height:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
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