<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Kirk,<br>
<br>
Your comment contains one incorrect statement:
<blockquote type="cite"><font face="Arial" size="2">The stove
which gets more transfer of the heat into the pot may cause
more steam if it cannot turn down to a lower power level
than the lesser stove, but that means that the two simmering
temperatures are different.</font></blockquote>
<font size="2"><font face="Arial">Essentially there is only one
simmering temperature that is allowed, which is to be never
more than 6 deg C </font></font>lower than the boiling
point. If local boiling point is 100 C, then never less than 94
C, and probably best to keep the temperature of the water at about
97 C. <br>
<br>
But even a roaring fire cannot raise the temperature above the
boiling point. So the difference in the TEMPERATURE OF THE WATER
is of little consequence, being about 3 deg C. And remember that
<u>the purpose or objective of simmering</u> is to maintain the
temperature. The purpose is NOT to minimize the amount of
evaporated water, which is only a poor reflection of how much fuel
is used. <br>
<br>
Please also see my next message, that is addressed to Phillip and
Dean who have exchanged messages recently.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 2/15/2015 6:41 PM, kgharris wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:2FD178EF9CDE4E7384A9EF4DA4BF8B8F@phyllisPC"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 9.00.8112.16609">
<style></style>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">All,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I am not understanding why the
WBT is invalid if the simmer temperature is held the same for
all stoves. The stove which gets more transfer of the heat
into the pot may cause more steam if it cannot turn down to
a lower power level than the lesser stove, but that means that
the two simmering temperatures are different. Dean is talking
about the test simmering temperature being the same for all
stoves. The stove that gets more heat transfer into the pot
will need more turn-down than the lesser stove in order to
simmer at the pre-choosen test temperature. That is the whole
reason for improving the heat transfer into the food. To be
able to use lower power levels, less fuel, and fewer
emmissions to cook with. The two capabilities need to evolve
together, and both are improvements which can enhance a good
field usable stove. Also simplicity of construction and ease
of use are important qualities which need consideration and
perhaps some kind of metrics for measurements.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kirk Harris</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Santa Rosa, CA. USA</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>----- Original Message ----- </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="deankstill@gmail.com"
href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">Dean Still</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, February 15,
2015 1:35 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos]
Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Dear Philip,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The Low Power test works well when the fuel use is
normalized using a set simmering temperature. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Sam and I are writing up some characteristics of the WBT
and I'll post the paper here. Lots of work to do and I look
forward to our continued collaboration.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dean</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:43 AM,
Philip Lloyd <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" target="_blank">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px
0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex" class="gmail_quote">
<div vlink="purple" link="blue" lang="EN-US">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
11pt">Dear Dean</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
11pt"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
11pt">Crispin said it well:<br>
“</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">The three
low power metr</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">ics are
invalid. The variables selected are
inappropriately chosen. The calculated results are
misleading and contrary to any claim [that] they
provide guidance for product development or
selection. We have to move on.” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I have
looked at the simmering metrics in WBT 4.3.2 and
can only concur. That is why I do not think we
should waste much more time arguing about them –
they are fundamentally wrong. Yes, stove designers
need to be concerned with simmering and turndown;
no, the WBT simmering metrics do not provide them
with guidance, and can be positively misleading,
which is worse.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Kind
regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Philip
Lloyd</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
11pt"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE:
11pt"></span> </p>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT:
medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm;
PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid;
BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif';
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Stoves [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Dean Still<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 February 2015 06:38<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Examples of results
of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional
presentations at ETHOS 2015</span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Prof Loyd,</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As I pointed out, when the
stoves do the same work (hold the water at 97 C,
for example) the stove with greater heat
transfer efficiency scores better. Simmering
tests are important and simmering is an
important part of cooking.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">The ISO process is creating
new history and approaches to old problems.
Whatever emerges will certainly be defensible as
the new approaches are forged by consensus.</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dean</p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at
12:58 AM, Philip Lloyd <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za"
target="_blank">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I am
concerned that this is turning into a
very fruitless discussion.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">On
fundamental grounds the simmering test
does not provide anything meaningful.
Crispin has demonstrated that
rigorously, and others have pointed
out that the test can score an
efficient stove poorly and an
inefficient stove well, so it does not
provide any useful measure. To go on
defending the indefensible does not
make sense, even if it did accentuate
the need for turndown – but that need
was always there, it was not the
product of the WBT.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We need
defensible measures of stove
performance. Can we please turn our
attention to developing those, and
leave the indefensible to history?</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Prof Philip Lloyd</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Energy Institute</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cape Peninsula
University of Technology</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PO Box 652, Cape Town
8000</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="Tel:021" target="_blank">Tel:021</a>
460 4216</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fax:021 460 3828</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d;
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cell: 083 441 5247</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR:
#1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></span> </p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none;
BORDER-LEFT: medium none;
PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT:
0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP:
#b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT:
medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Tahoma','sans-serif';
FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE:
10pt"> Stoves [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Paul Anderson<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 15 February 2015
02:26<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
Examples of results of simmer
efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional
presentations at ETHOS 2015</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">Dear Dean, my
reply is below:</p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD </pre>
<pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> </pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a></pre>
<pre>Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 2/14/2015 1:06
PM, Dean Still wrote:</p>
</div>
<blockquote style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt;
MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dear Paul, </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">To do well on
the Low Power Specific Consumption
metrics the stove has to have a
good Turn Down Ratio. In other
words, the stove has to have high
power and low power.</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">I totally agree with
this. But it is not the whole story of
LPSC. Other factors influence LPSC,
especially concerning the measurement of
the variables that are used to make the
calculation. These can include the
insulation of the pot (incl. skirts),
lid on pot, pot characteristics such as
size, quantity of water in the pot at
the start, and at the finish.</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Specific
Consumption is based on how much
energy was used to create simmered
water. </p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">Simmered water is not
created. It was already hot at the
start of the simmer phase of testing.
We are interested in how much energy is
used to MAINTAIN the required
temperature near boiling, but preferable
about 3 degrees C lower than that
boiling temperature. In fact, a
super-insulative pot could need barely a
flicker of a flame, and therefore even a
well turned-down stove could cause the
water to boil and evaporate. </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">If the stove only
operates at high power there is more
steam made and [at the end of
testing] less simmered water
remains....</p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">that is true. but
continue.</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">..... so energy
was used to create less product.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">Stove simmering is not
creating a product. It is maintaining
a temperature. The steam that is
driven off does not represent loss of
"product" which should be understood to
be "cooked food" (and not meaning water
that can be added to the pot by any
attentive cook in a household.)</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I like Specific
Consumption because it forces stove
designers to make stoves that simmer
successfully, not just boil water. </p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">I agree. But the
measurement procedures need to
accurately document the ability to have
that strong turn-down ratio, without
calculations that can yield ambiguous or
mis-leading results.</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">For example, new
TLUDs are better stoves because they
have both high power and low power.
In my opinion, the WBT 4.2.3 helped
to create these more successful
TLUDs.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">The cause-and-effect
relationship is not totally clear. We
have wanted turn-down capabilities in
TLUDs for many years. </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">As Sam says, we
are working on a paper showing
characteristics of the WBT 4.2.3 for
the ISO work. Knowing the
characteristics lets folks evolve a
perfect test. </p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">I question the above
wording to "evolve a perfect test"
(which is a test run, not the test
procedures.) Maybe the statement
should be that "knowing the
characteristics let's folks operate
their stoves in special ways to obtain
superior results that are not realistic
for average users." OR "... let's folks
'game the metrics' to present
'perfected' test-results BASED ON
OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES AND NOT ON
IMPROVEMENTS TO THE STOVES THEMSELVES."
<br>
<br>
OR it could be that flawed protocols
/procedures (such as dividing by the
volume of remaining water after
simmering) can yield numerical results
that are questionable and perhaps
disadvantageous to the development of
clean cookstoves. </p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Sam is doing
great work as he crunches all the
data....</p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">absolutely. But we
are questioning if the numbers are as
valid and useful as claimed.</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> and gives ISO
real numbers to work with in their
discussions.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal"><br>
Concluding statement: The topic of Low
Power Specific Consumption is too
important to just brush aside the stated
issues. More "expert testimony" would
be useful, including a mathematical
analysis of the impact of the parts of
the calculations. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
</p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Best,</p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Dean</p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Sat, Feb 14,
2015 at 8:18 AM, Paul Anderson <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</p>
<div>
<div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal">Dear Tom
H., and to all who are
interested in proper testing of
stoves.<br>
<br>
Your reply about your
experiences is helpful. Sounds
like you had qualified testing
center do the testing, in
accordance with the procedures
that Crispin is questioning.
Please send to me the full
details. Could be off-list,
but this is sufficiently
important that we will want the
full results known.<br>
<br>
I have a specific case of
official testing of one of my
stoves with unfavorable results
for Low-Heat Efficiency
(simmering). I will add that
into the list of examples and
provide the details very soon.<br>
<br>
I invite anyone else who has
something to report about
simmering efficiency to also
send details of their
experiences, either favorable or
unfavorable or neutral. <br>
<br>
The examination of the
questionable methods about
simmer efficiency might take
some days, maybe weeks. But
not the months or years that
this debate has been
"simmering". <br>
<br>
Remember: A testing center that
properly conducts testing using
an endorsed but possibly flawed
procedure is NOT a culprit. The
culprit is the testing
protocols, <u>IF found to be
faulty. </u>And we hope
that the testing center people
(employees and leaders) who
understand the technical aspects
of the calculations will be
among those who can help resolve
these serious issues.<br>
<br>
Even those who developed
protocols that are eventually
shown to be faulty are not
culprits. Mistakes can be
made. However, the culprits
can include those who advocate a
protocol that he or she knows
(or reasonably suspects) to be
faulty.<br>
<br>
Paul </p>
<pre>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD </pre>
<pre>Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a> </pre>
<pre>Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a></pre>
<pre>Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class="MsoNormal"><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
</p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<p> </p>
<hr> _______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
web site:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<p> </p>
<hr>
<p color="#000000" avgcert??="" align="left">No virus found in
this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus Database: 4284/9121 - Release
Date: 02/15/15</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>