<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8">
</head>
<body data-blackberry-caret-color="#00a8df" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;">
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Dear AD</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Very interesting. Are you using the drums 'as is' without the encompassing shell and cover? Does the TLUD process yield less char?</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
I would appreciate seeing a description of the new system. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br>
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Thanks</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Crispin in Monsoon Yogya</div>
<br>
<div class="BodyFragment">
<div class="PlainText">Dear Crispin,<br>
we no longer use the oven and retort process for charring agricultural<br>
waste but use the TLUD principle, because the old oven and retort<br>
process required more hardware, resulting into higher capital cost.<br>
Yours<br>
A.D.Karve<br>
***<br>
Dr. A.D. Karve<br>
<br>
Chairman, Samuchit Enviro Tech Pvt Ltd (<a href="http://www.samuchit.com">www.samuchit.com</a>)<br>
<br>
Trustee & Founder President, Appropriate Rural Technology Institute (ARTI)<br>
<br>
<br>
On Fri, Feb 13, 2015 at 5:52 AM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<br>
<crispinpigott@outlook.com> wrote:<br>
> Dear Jock and Paul and All<br>
><br>
> This is conceptually very similar to what Dr AD Karve has been doing with<br>
> the sugar cane leaves except for two things. He is using 7 barrels at a time<br>
> in the fire and the gas exits the bottom of the containers (barrels) so as<br>
> to use the heat for cooking the char instead of cooking the pot.<br>
><br>
> The Karve Koncept uses the least total fuel to make the char (the primary<br>
> product). The capping of the top to keep air out and heat in allows for<br>
> simultaneous cooking but requires more fuel (to make the char) but has a<br>
> second task to accomplish so it doesn't matter.<br>
><br>
> In both cases the systems are able to make char from material that is hard<br>
> to work with. In the second case an 'easier to burn fuel' is used to char a<br>
> 'hard to burn fuel'.<br>
><br>
> When sawdust is used for cooking it is often burned using the 'central<br>
> hole' drum approach with a stick forming the hole while it is packed around<br>
> with sawdust. A second stick makes the side air entrance.<br>
><br>
> Cecil reports that a standard way of having that approach not have to burn<br>
> at high power all the time and to reduce the smoke bursts is to put a single<br>
> stick of fuel into the side hole where it provides a continuous ignition<br>
> source for the gases inside. This burns slowly and is pushed in now and<br>
> then. Viewed systemically it is also a co-firing burner that uses a<br>
> different fuel to maintain the production and burning of the gases.<br>
><br>
> Most practical cooking stoves have some measure of power control. As this<br>
> approach is micro-tized please consider how it might be controlled up and<br>
> down. For space heating it is not much of a requirement so a MPFront would<br>
> suit the power requirment well.<br>
><br>
> Regards<br>
> Crispin in the Monsoon<br>
><br>
> Paul,<br>
><br>
> I will try to answer your questions from the perspective of a teaching tool,<br>
> not a production unit.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> Jock<br>
><br>
> Jock Gill<br>
> P.O. Box 3<br>
> Peacham, VT 05862<br>
><br>
> +1 (802) 503-1258<br>
><br>
> Stewardship: not dominion, extraction or exploitation<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Feb 12, 2015, at 11:53 AM, Paul Anderson <psanders@ilstu.edu> wrote:<br>
><br>
> To all, both Stovers and Biochar makers.<br>
><br>
> I thank Marc and Jock and Kirk (and probably some others, including Peter<br>
> Hirst with his barrel-size unit, on video) for their efforts with a retort<br>
> can inside of a TLUD gasifier. (see some messages below). I mention the<br>
> following topics for consideration.<br>
><br>
> 1. Where inside the TLUD is the retort can to be placed? The retort needs<br>
> heat to it, but the TLUD heat INSIDE THE FUEL BED is only at the top and<br>
> then progressing slowly downward with the MPF (Migratory Pyrolytic Front),<br>
> meaning that the bottom of the can does NOT get heated until the MPF is<br>
> getting close.<br>
><br>
><br>
> My approach is to simply place the retort can on the bottom of the empty<br>
> TLUD - centered. I have the primary air come in from the sides, not the<br>
> bottom, to avoid cooling of the lower portion of the retort. The top of the<br>
> retort can is at about at the level of the secondary air supply, perhaps a<br>
> bit below.<br>
><br>
> Then I fill the space between the retort can and the TLUD with fuel -- I use<br>
> wood pellets for demos.<br>
><br>
> Start the TLUD in the usual fashion.<br>
><br>
> When the TLUD has pyrolized the last of the pellets, the retort is left<br>
> sitting in a very hot bed of charcoal that reaches part way up its sides. I<br>
> allow the charcoal to continue to burn, with primary air, until the retort<br>
> is finished -- no more combustible gases coming out. While the charcoal is<br>
> burning, the upper part of the retort is bathed in very hot exhaust gases.<br>
> Thus it is important (?) that the top of the retort can be below the cooling<br>
> secondary air.<br>
><br>
> At the end, since both the TLUD and the Retort are small, it is not<br>
> difficult to extract the retort can and then dump the charcoal remaining in<br>
> the TLUD into quenching water. I sometimes empty the retort into a mason<br>
> jar and seal it in the usual way. This gives me bone dry biochar.<br>
> Quenching hot biochar in water gives me instantly fully saturated [hydrated]<br>
> biochar - or so says Hugh. It is also safe to handle and will not<br>
> spontaneously re-ignite.<br>
><br>
> Keeping the retort in the the TLUD, below the secondary air, and away from<br>
> the primary air, both of which would tend to cool the retort, seems to work<br>
> well.<br>
><br>
> Note: Wood pellets work well in my system. Larger grass tablets seems to<br>
> be have a more difficult time transferring heat inside the retort. Perhaps<br>
> part because they expand when they get hot?<br>
><br>
> In my educational units, the TLUD is a large coffee can from Costco - very<br>
> nice steel. The resort is a 1 quart paint can - not such nice steel. BTW,<br>
> you only need two or three holes in the lid of the 1 quart can to allow the<br>
> gases out. I suspect this also helps to keep heat in the retort. The<br>
> escaping gases will take heat away as they exit the retort - yes?<br>
><br>
> I hope this helps.<br>
><br>
> Cheers,<br>
><br>
> Jock<br>
><br>
><br>
> Therefore, should the retort can be above the fuel level but below the entry<br>
> of secondary air? Maybe not, because the can and its contents could chill<br>
> the rising gases and hinder their combustion. But maybe this is not so<br>
> crucial?<br>
><br>
> Maybe the retort can is only in the upper half(?) of the TLUD fuel?<br>
><br>
> Or maybe this does not make much difference?<br>
><br>
> 2. I like Jock's idea of the outlet holes being upward in the retort can.<br>
> He reports seeing the small jets of flame. That means that the retort<br>
> gases are entering into an environment with sufficient secondary air for<br>
> combustion. This also is then an issue of the placement of the retort.<br>
><br>
> Please note that instead of outlet holes there could be an outlet Channel<br>
> (pipe, tube, etc) that takes the retort gases to a different place.<br>
> Remember that retort gases come out in a sequence of types that start with<br>
> water vapor, then mixed gases, and finally the pyrolytic gases that are<br>
> combustible. Retort processes do not occur the same way as TLUD processes.<br>
><br>
> 3. Placing the retort canister ABOVE the secondary air entry provides the<br>
> maximum heat to the retort. Maybe it could be in the "riser" section, or<br>
> up where the cooking pot would otherwise be placed. This has been done in<br>
> barrel-size units by Doug Clayton and Hugh McLaughlin and is on video. The<br>
> main problem encountered is the difficulty / danger of handling full barrels<br>
> well above ground level, sometimes full of hot char.<br>
><br>
> 4. Of course, issues of char qualities need to be considered. About<br>
> putting fines (very small) biomass into retorts, it is known that the<br>
> transfer of heat from the edges to the center is HINDERED if the materials<br>
> are too packed together.<br>
><br>
> Many of us are looking forward to further reports on this topic.<br>
><br>
> Paul<br>
><br>
> Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD<br>
> Email: psanders@ilstu.edu<br>
> Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<br>
> Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a><br>
><br>
> On 2/12/2015 6:35 AM, Jock Gill wrote:<br>
><br>
> Marc,<br>
><br>
> I have also done this. I place feedstock in a smaller can that only has a<br>
> few holes in its lid to allow the pyrolytic gases to escape and burn. I<br>
> then place this, as you did, in a larger can used as a ND TLUD and surround<br>
> the smaller can with fuel. This creates a retort within a TLUD. The TLUD<br>
> will burn some of the charcoal it has made in order to finish the pyrolysis<br>
> in the inner retort can.<br>
><br>
> I find, contrary to the given wisdom, that the inner "retort" can be placed<br>
> with in the TLUD with the gas escape holes facing UP. This allows students<br>
> to see the gas come out and ignite. If they can see the flames created by<br>
> the gas coming out of the retort it much more powerful educational<br>
> experience.<br>
><br>
> Well done,<br>
><br>
> Jock<br>
><br>
> Jock Gill<br>
> P.O. Box 3<br>
> Peacham, VT 05862<br>
><br>
> Cell: (617) 449-8111<br>
><br>
> google.com/+JockGill<br>
><br>
> :> Extract CO2 from the atmosphere! <:<br>
><br>
> Via iPad<br>
><br>
> On Feb 12, 2015, at 5:07 AM, Marquitusus <marquitusus@hotmail.com> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Hi, in the mids December I consulted the list about my problems with almond<br>
> husks as TLUD's fuel.<br>
> The problem is the smaller particles of this fuel obstruct the primary air<br>
> flow and the pyrolisys stops.<br>
><br>
> Kirk suggested me using the "can method": just screening the fuel and use<br>
> the smaller fraction for filling a can that will be put inside the reactor,<br>
> surrounded by the large particles fraction. I recently tried this method,<br>
> and it really worked! You can see pics here:<br>
> <a href="http://cuinessolars.jimdo.com/cuines/cuines-gasificadores/">http://cuinessolars.jimdo.com/cuines/cuines-gasificadores/</a><br>
><br>
> So, this opens the door for using any size of fuel in a ND-TLUD, from rice<br>
> hulls to saw dust or any other little particles fuel ( I understand that in<br>
> a FD-TLUD is not necessary, because of the forced air draft). Also, this<br>
> method can allow to shorten the size of the chimneys or risers, because less<br>
> draft is necessary.<br>
><br>
> The bad news are we need a can (that is exposed to high temps that will<br>
> deteriorate it) and we need to previously screen the fuel, but I think these<br>
> are minor handicaps compared to the benefits it brings<br>
><br>
> Marc<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Stoves mailing list<br>
><br>
> to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
> stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
><br>
> to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
> <a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">
http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
><br>
> for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
> <a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
><br>
><br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br>
<a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>