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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I am not understanding why the WBT is invalid if
the simmer temperature is held the same for all stoves. The stove which
gets more transfer of the heat into the pot may cause more steam
if it cannot turn down to a lower power level than the lesser stove,
but that means that the two simmering temperatures are different. Dean is
talking about the test simmering temperature being the same for all
stoves. The stove that gets more heat transfer into the pot will
need more turn-down than the lesser stove in order to simmer at
the pre-choosen test temperature. That is the whole reason for
improving the heat transfer into the food. To be able to use lower power
levels, less fuel, and fewer emmissions to cook with. The two
capabilities need to evolve together, and both are improvements which can
enhance a good field usable stove. Also simplicity of construction
and ease of use are important qualities which need consideration and perhaps
some kind of metrics for measurements.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk Harris</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Santa Rosa, CA. USA</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=deankstill@gmail.com href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">Dean
Still</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 15, 2015 1:35
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Examples of results
of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear Philip,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>The Low Power test works well when the fuel use is normalized using a set
simmering temperature. </DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Sam and I are writing up some characteristics of the WBT and I'll post
the paper here. Lots of work to do and I look forward to our continued
collaboration.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Dean</DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Philip Lloyd <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za"
target=_blank>plloyd@mweb.co.za</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote>
<DIV lang=EN-US vlink="purple" link="blue">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Dean<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Crispin
said it well:<BR>“</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">The three low
power metr</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">ics are invalid.
The variables selected are inappropriately chosen. The calculated results
are misleading and contrary to any claim [that] they provide guidance for
product development or selection. We have to move
on.” <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">I have looked at
the simmering metrics in WBT 4.3.2 and can only concur. That is why I
do not think we should waste much more time arguing about them – they are
fundamentally wrong. Yes, stove designers need to be concerned with
simmering and turndown; no, the WBT simmering metrics do not provide them
with guidance, and can be positively misleading, which is
worse.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Kind
regards<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d">Philip
Lloyd<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Stoves
[mailto:<A href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Dean Still<BR><B>Sent:</B> 15 February 2015 06:38<BR><B>To:</B>
Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves]
Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional
presentations at ETHOS 2015<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dear Prof Loyd,<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>As I pointed out, when the stoves do the same work (hold
the water at 97 C, for example) the stove with greater heat transfer
efficiency scores better. Simmering tests are important and simmering is an
important part of cooking.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>The ISO process is creating new history and approaches to
old problems. Whatever emerges will certainly be defensible as the new
approaches are forged by consensus.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Best,<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dean<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:58 AM, Philip Lloyd <<A
href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" target=_blank>plloyd@mweb.co.za</A>>
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
am concerned that this is turning into a very fruitless
discussion.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">On
fundamental grounds the simmering test does not provide anything
meaningful. Crispin has demonstrated that rigorously, and others have
pointed out that the test can score an efficient stove poorly and an
inefficient stove well, so it does not provide any useful measure. To
go on defending the indefensible does not make sense, even if it did
accentuate the need for turndown – but that need was always there, it was
not the product of the WBT.</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">We
need defensible measures of stove performance. Can we please turn our
attention to developing those, and leave the indefensible to
history?</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Prof
Philip Lloyd</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Energy
Institute</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cape
Peninsula University of Technology</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">PO
Box 652, Cape Town 8000</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><A
href="Tel:021" target=_blank>Tel:021</A> 460 4216</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Fax:021
460 3828</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Cell:
083 441 5247</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"></SPAN><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Stoves
[mailto:<A href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>Paul Anderson<BR><B>Sent:</B> 15 February 2015 02:26<BR><B>To:</B>
Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves]
Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional
presentations at ETHOS 2015</SPAN><U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Dear Dean,
my reply is below:<U></U><U></U></P><PRE>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD <U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>Email: <A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target=_blank>psanders@ilstu.edu</A> <U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>Skype: paultlud Phone: <A href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target=_blank>+1-309-452-7072</A><U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>Website: <A href="http://www.drtlud.com" target=_blank>www.drtlud.com</A><U></U><U></U></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal>On 2/14/2015 1:06 PM, Dean Still
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dear Paul, <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>To do well on the Low Power Specific Consumption
metrics the stove has to have a good Turn Down Ratio. In other words, the
stove has to have high power and low
power.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>I totally agree with
this. But it is not the whole story of LPSC. Other
factors influence LPSC, especially concerning the measurement of the
variables that are used to make the calculation. These can
include the insulation of the pot (incl. skirts), lid on pot, pot
characteristics such as size, quantity of water in the pot at the start, and
at the finish.<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Specific Consumption is based on how much energy was used
to create simmered water. <U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Simmered water is not
created. It was already hot at the start of the simmer phase of
testing. We are interested in how much energy is used to
MAINTAIN the required temperature near boiling, but preferable about 3
degrees C lower than that boiling temperature. In fact, a
super-insulative pot could need barely a flicker of a flame, and therefore
even a well turned-down stove could cause the water to boil and
evaporate. <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>If the stove only operates at high power there is more
steam made and [at the end of testing] less simmered water
remains....<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>that is true. but
continue.<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>..... so energy was used to create less
product.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Stove simmering is not
creating a product. It is maintaining a temperature.
The steam that is driven off does not represent loss of "product" which
should be understood to be "cooked food" (and not meaning water that can be
added to the pot by any attentive cook in a household.)<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>I like Specific Consumption because it forces stove
designers to make stoves that simmer successfully, not just boil water.
<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>I agree. But the
measurement procedures need to accurately document the ability to have that
strong turn-down ratio, without calculations that can yield ambiguous or
mis-leading results.<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>For example, new TLUDs are better stoves because they
have both high power and low power. In my opinion, the WBT 4.2.3 helped to
create these more successful TLUDs.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>The cause-and-effect
relationship is not totally clear. We have wanted turn-down
capabilities in TLUDs for many years. <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>As Sam says, we are working on a paper showing
characteristics of the WBT 4.2.3 for the ISO work. Knowing the
characteristics lets folks evolve a perfect test.
<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>I question the above wording
to "evolve a perfect test" (which is a test run, not the test procedures.)
Maybe the statement should be that "knowing the characteristics let's
folks operate their stoves in special ways to obtain superior results that
are not realistic for average users." OR "... let's folks 'game the
metrics' to present 'perfected' test-results BASED ON OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES
AND NOT ON IMPROVEMENTS TO THE STOVES THEMSELVES." <BR><BR>OR it could be
that flawed protocols /procedures (such as dividing by the volume of
remaining water after simmering) can yield numerical results that are
questionable and perhaps disadvantageous to the development of clean
cookstoves. <U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Sam is doing great work as he crunches all the
data....<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>absolutely. But
we are questioning if the numbers are as valid and useful as
claimed.<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> and gives ISO real numbers to work with in their
discussions.<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><BR>Concluding
statement: The topic of Low Power Specific Consumption is too
important to just brush aside the stated issues. More "expert
testimony" would be useful, including a mathematical analysis of the impact
of the parts of the calculations.
<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR><BR><U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Best,<U></U><U></U></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dean<U></U><U></U></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:18 AM, Paul Anderson <<A
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target=_blank>psanders@ilstu.edu</A>>
wrote:<U></U><U></U></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal>Dear Tom
H., and to all who are
interested in proper testing of stoves.<BR><BR>Your reply about your
experiences is helpful. Sounds like you had qualified testing
center do the testing, in accordance with the procedures that Crispin is
questioning. Please send to me the full details.
Could be off-list, but this is sufficiently important that we will want the
full results known.<BR><BR>I have a specific case of official testing of one
of my stoves with unfavorable results for Low-Heat Efficiency
(simmering). I will add that into the list of examples and
provide the details very soon.<BR><BR>I invite anyone else who has something
to report about simmering efficiency to also send details of their
experiences, either favorable or unfavorable or neutral. <BR><BR>The
examination of the questionable methods about simmer efficiency might take
some days, maybe weeks. But not the months or years that this
debate has been "simmering". <BR><BR>Remember: A testing
center that properly conducts testing using an endorsed but possibly flawed
procedure is NOT a culprit. The culprit is the testing protocols,
<U>IF found to be faulty. </U>And we hope that the testing
center people (employees and leaders) who understand the technical aspects
of the calculations will be among those who can help resolve these serious
issues.<BR><BR>Even those who developed protocols that are eventually shown
to be faulty are not culprits. Mistakes can be
made. However, the culprits can include those who advocate
a protocol that he or she knows (or reasonably suspects) to be
faulty.<BR><BR>Paul <U></U><U></U></P><PRE>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD <U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>Email: <A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target=_blank>psanders@ilstu.edu</A> <U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>Skype: paultlud Phone: <A href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target=_blank>+1-309-452-7072</A><U></U><U></U></PRE><PRE>Website: <A href="http://www.drtlud.com" target=_blank>www.drtlud.com</A><U></U><U></U></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P></DIV></DIV>
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