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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Crispin,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thank you for the effort you put into your
response.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>If I put a pot of water on the stove and turn the
heat all the way up, the water boils. If I turn the power level down
the water stops boiling and cools down to a point of equalibrium, heat in
equals heat out. If I put a pot skirt around the pot it increases the heat
transfer into the pot and I can turn the power level down further to maintain
the same temperature. This I have done and it is the real world, not
theory, mathematics or other calculations, models or descriptions.
This is what the cook in Africa, China, India or anywhere else will
experience. I respect your discussion but I see nothing which tells
me to reject the reality that I see with my eyes and measure with my
thermometer. Have you not done these things also in all of your cooking
experiences? Have you not turned the heat down when it was too hot?
One does not need high powered mathematics to do that.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Respectfully,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk Harris</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=crispinpigott@outlook.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, February 15, 2015 10:06
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Examples of results
of simmer efficiency Re:[Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Dear
Kirk<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">You
cannot make a determination of the heat transfer efficiency to a hot pot at
low power using evaporated water and fire heat only. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Any
twiddling of the numbers will not make it possible. A determination of the
heat transfer efficiency at low power, yes you make it, but not if the pot is
already boiling hot.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Here
is why:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">A
cold pot on a fire absorbs heat and the losses from the sides are minimal and
have a very small influence on the actual result. The actual result is the
heat available to the pot divided by the heat received by the pot. The heat
getting into the pot includes heat lost from the sides and the heat that
changes the temperature of the water and pot material, and the heat used to
evaporate water. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">If
the pot is cold, the temperature rise is a very accurate measure of heat
gained. The loss from evaporation (which starts at about 70 C) can be added,
but the losses from the side start to rise in proportion to the temperature of
the pot. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
WBT’s approach is a problem:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">When
the pot is already boiling, the losses from the sides are at
maximum.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
loss from temperature change is nil.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
loss to evaporation is measured by determining a change in mass and
calculating the number of Joules needed to evaporate the water. The
change in temperature is considered, but the side losses are not.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">When
the stove is simmering, especially when it is simmering at <I>just </I>the
right energy level to offset the losses from the sides of the pot, the size of
the side losses are the majority of all heat gained by the pot, and the
evaporative losses are minimal. The unmeasured component greatly exceeds the
measured component. That is BAD.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">You
have described the stove with a better turn-down ability as a ‘better stove’
operating at a lower power level.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">But
calculating the ‘efficiency’ or ‘heat transfer efficiency’ using the missing
water and the fire heat gives a completely misleading result. The better the
turn-down and the more closely the fire matches the losses from the sides of
the pot, in other words what you described as a ‘better stove’, the worse the
reported efficiency. That is REALLY BAD.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
less the stove can be turned down, the higher the fuel consumption. If the
heat transfer efficiency is <I>actually</I> the same, the WBT will report an
increase over the efficiency that is reported for lower power. That is ALSO
BAD. The fact is we don’t know what the heat transfer efficiency is because we
are not measuring it – only the heat lost to evaporation divided by fire heat.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Thermal
efficiency can be determined with reasonable precision for a hot fire and a
cold pot. Measuring it with a hot pot at low power gives very misleading
results.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Combining
the two, reporting the overall thermal efficiency for boiling and simmering a
hot pot is also misleading because of the influence of the invalid simmering
number on the valid boiling number. It is easy to determine the heat transfer
rate to a pot at high and low power, but not while simmering a hot pot. Just
use a cold pot and low power, or any power for that matter. That is what the
CSI-WHT does. It does not (yet) use the losses from the sides of the pot but
that is coming too. Then the heat transfer efficiency number you like so much
will be reported accurately.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
variable ‘heat transfer efficiency’ is valid, but how it is calculated – not
so much these days.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Just
because one method miscalculates something does not mean everyone should. And
it does not mean it cannot be determined correctly. It just needs a conceptual
re-think.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Thanks
for raising the questions. More are welcome. We should all understand
this.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Regards<BR>Crispin<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #e1e1e1 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: windowtext; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>kgharris<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, February 16, 2015
12:24<BR><B>To:</B> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B>
Re: [Stoves] Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional
presentations at ETHOS 2015<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Paul,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I respectfully
disagree. Two stoves are burning at the same fire power
and one has better heat transfer to the pot. The water in
the better heat transfer stove will be hotter because less heat is
lost, producing more steam and lower scores. The better heat
transfer stove will have to be turned down to a lower power level to keep
the pot the same temperature as the worse heat transfer stove.
That is the whole reason for improving heat transfer into the pot, to allow a
lower power level for the same cooking ability.
</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The thing which has
been shown about the WB simmering test is that it does not work if each
stove has it's own seperate simmering temperature and steam production.
It will work if all stoves are adjusted to a fire power that
produces the same simmering temperature and steam production for all
tests. Then the lower a stoves fire power and fuel
use the better the score, and no punishment for a more efficient
stove. Keeping the simmering temperature and steam production the same
for all stove tests allows meaningful comparisons between stoves and good
protocol for tier ratings. The results of keeping the temperature the
same will help the stove designer because different designs can then be
compared with each other on equal basis, and the more efficient design,
balanced with cost, can be chosen.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I must agree with
Dean Still on this.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kirk
Harris</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">----- Original
Message ----- <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=psanders@ilstu.edu href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">Paul Anderson</A>
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sunday, February
15, 2015 7:30 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Stoves]
Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional
presentations at ETHOS 2015<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Kirk,<BR><BR>Your comment contains one incorrect
statement: <o:p></o:p></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">The stove which
gets more transfer of the heat into the pot may cause more
steam if it cannot turn down to a lower power level than the
lesser stove, but that means that the two simmering temperatures are
different.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Essentially there
is only one simmering temperature that is allowed, which is to be never more
than 6 deg C </SPAN>lower than the boiling point. If local
boiling point is 100 C, then never less than 94 C, and probably best to keep
the temperature of the water at about 97 C. <BR><BR>But even a
roaring fire cannot raise the temperature above the boiling
point. So the difference in the TEMPERATURE OF THE WATER is of
little consequence, being about 3 deg C. And remember that <U>the
purpose or objective of simmering</U> is to maintain the
temperature. The purpose is NOT to minimize the amount of
evaporated water, which is only a poor reflection of how much fuel is
used. <BR><BR>Please also see my next message, that is addressed
to Phillip and Dean who have exchanged messages
recently.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P><PRE>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD <o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>Email: <A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</A> <o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>Website: <A href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A><o:p></o:p></PRE>
<P class=MsoNormal>On 2/15/2015 6:41 PM, kgharris
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">All,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">I am not
understanding why the WBT is invalid if the simmer temperature is held the
same for all stoves. The stove which gets more transfer of
the heat into the pot may cause more steam if it cannot turn
down to a lower power level than the lesser stove, but that
means that the two simmering temperatures are different. Dean is
talking about the test simmering temperature being the same for all
stoves. The stove that gets more heat transfer into the
pot will need more turn-down than the lesser stove in order to simmer at
the pre-choosen test temperature. That is the whole reason for
improving the heat transfer into the food. To be able to use lower
power levels, less fuel, and fewer emmissions to cook with. The
two capabilities need to evolve together, and both are improvements
which can enhance a good field usable stove. Also simplicity of
construction and ease of use are important qualities which need
consideration and perhaps some kind of metrics for
measurements.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kirk
Harris</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Santa Rosa, CA.
USA</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm">
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=deankstill@gmail.com href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com">Dean
Still</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass
cooking stoves</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Sunday,
February 15, 2015 1:35 PM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Re: [Stoves]
Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional
presentations at ETHOS 2015<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dear Philip, <o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>The Low Power test works well when the fuel use is
normalized using a set simmering temperature. <o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Sam and I are writing up some characteristics of the
WBT and I'll post the paper here. Lots of work to do and I look forward
to our continued collaboration.<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Best,<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>Dean<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 11:43 AM, Philip Lloyd <<A
href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" target=_blank>plloyd@mweb.co.za</A>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: #cccccc 1pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 6pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; MARGIN-LEFT: 4.8pt; BORDER-TOP: medium none; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm">
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>Dear Dean</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>Crispin said it well:<BR>“</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d"
lang=EN-US>The three low power metrics are invalid. The variables
selected are inappropriately chosen. The calculated results are
misleading and contrary to any claim [that] they provide guidance for
product development or selection. We have to move
on.” </SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d" lang=EN-US>I
have looked at the simmering metrics in WBT 4.3.2 and can only
concur. That is why I do not think we should waste much more
time arguing about them – they are fundamentally wrong. Yes, stove
designers need to be concerned with simmering and turndown; no, the
WBT simmering metrics do not provide them with guidance, and can be
positively misleading, which is worse.</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d"
lang=EN-US>Kind regards</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d"
lang=EN-US>Philip Lloyd</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-US>
Stoves [mailto:<A
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Dean Still<BR><B>Sent:</B> 15 February 2015
06:38<BR><B>To:</B> Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Examples of results of simmer
efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS
2015</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Dear Prof Loyd,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>As I pointed out, when the stoves do
the same work (hold the water at 97 C, for example) the stove with
greater heat transfer efficiency scores better. Simmering tests are
important and simmering is an important part of
cooking.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>The ISO process is creating new
history and approaches to old problems. Whatever emerges will
certainly be defensible as the new approaches are forged by
consensus.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Best,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Dean<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>On Sun, Feb 15, 2015 at 12:58 AM,
Philip Lloyd <<A href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za"
target=_blank>plloyd@mweb.co.za</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>I am concerned that this is turning into a very fruitless
discussion.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>On fundamental grounds the simmering test does not provide
anything meaningful. Crispin has demonstrated that rigorously,
and others have pointed out that the test can score an efficient stove
poorly and an inefficient stove well, so it does not provide any
useful measure. To go on defending the indefensible does not
make sense, even if it did accentuate the need for turndown – but that
need was always there, it was not the product of the WBT.</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-US>We need defensible measures of stove performance. Can
we please turn our attention to developing those, and leave the
indefensible to history?</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>Prof Philip Lloyd</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>Energy Institute</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>Cape Peninsula University of Technology</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US><A href="Tel:021" target=_blank>Tel:021</A> 460
4216</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>Fax:021 460 3828</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>Cell: 083 441 5247</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-US>
Stoves [mailto:<A
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On
Behalf Of </B>Paul Anderson<BR><B>Sent:</B> 15 February 2015
02:26<BR><B>To:</B> Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Examples of results of simmer
efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS
2015</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Dear Dean, my reply
is below:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD <o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Email: <A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target=_blank>psanders@ilstu.edu</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Skype: paultlud Phone: <A href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target=_blank>+1-309-452-7072</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Website: <A href="http://www.drtlud.com" target=_blank>www.drtlud.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>On 2/14/2015 1:06 PM, Dean Still
wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-TOP: 5pt; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 5pt">
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Dear Paul, <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>To do well on the Low Power
Specific Consumption metrics the stove has to have a good Turn Down
Ratio. In other words, the stove has to have high power and low
power.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>I totally agree with
this. But it is not the whole story of LPSC.
Other factors influence LPSC, especially concerning the measurement of
the variables that are used to make the calculation. These
can include the insulation of the pot (incl. skirts), lid on pot, pot
characteristics such as size, quantity of water in the pot at the
start, and at the finish.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Specific Consumption is based on how
much energy was used to create simmered water.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Simmered water is not
created. It was already hot at the start of the simmer
phase of testing. We are interested in how much energy is
used to MAINTAIN the required temperature near boiling, but preferable
about 3 degrees C lower than that boiling temperature. In fact,
a super-insulative pot could need barely a flicker of a flame, and
therefore even a well turned-down stove could cause the water to boil
and evaporate. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>If the stove only operates at high
power there is more steam made and [at the end of testing] less
simmered water remains....<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>that is true. but
continue.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>..... so energy was used to create
less product.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Stove simmering is not creating a
product. It is maintaining a temperature. The
steam that is driven off does not represent loss of "product" which
should be understood to be "cooked food" (and not meaning water that
can be added to the pot by any attentive cook in a
household.)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>I like Specific Consumption because
it forces stove designers to make stoves that simmer successfully, not
just boil water. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>I agree. But the
measurement procedures need to accurately document the ability to have
that strong turn-down ratio, without calculations that can yield
ambiguous or mis-leading results.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>For example, new TLUDs are better
stoves because they have both high power and low power. In my opinion,
the WBT 4.2.3 helped to create these more successful
TLUDs.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>The cause-and-effect relationship is
not totally clear. We have wanted turn-down capabilities
in TLUDs for many years. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>As Sam says, we are working on a
paper showing characteristics of the WBT 4.2.3 for the ISO work.
Knowing the characteristics lets folks evolve a perfect test.
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>I question the above wording to
"evolve a perfect test" (which is a test run, not the test
procedures.) Maybe the statement should be that "knowing the
characteristics let's folks operate their stoves in special ways to
obtain superior results that are not realistic for average
users." OR "... let's folks 'game the metrics' to present
'perfected' test-results BASED ON OPERATIONAL PROCEDURES AND NOT ON
IMPROVEMENTS TO THE STOVES THEMSELVES." <BR><BR>OR it could be that
flawed protocols /procedures (such as dividing by the volume of
remaining water after simmering) can yield numerical results that are
questionable and perhaps disadvantageous to the development of clean
cookstoves. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Sam is doing great work as he
crunches all the data....<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>absolutely. But we are
questioning if the numbers are as valid and useful as
claimed.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> and gives ISO real numbers to
work with in their discussions.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US><BR>Concluding statement:
The topic of Low Power Specific Consumption is too important to just
brush aside the stated issues. More "expert testimony"
would be useful, including a mathematical analysis of the impact of
the parts of the calculations.
<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Best,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-US>Dean<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>On Sat, Feb 14, 2015 at 8:18 AM, Paul
Anderson <<A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu"
target=_blank>psanders@ilstu.edu</A>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-US>Dear Tom
H., and to all who are
interested in proper testing of stoves.<BR><BR>Your reply about your
experiences is helpful. Sounds like you had qualified
testing center do the testing, in accordance with the procedures that
Crispin is questioning. Please send to me the full
details. Could be off-list, but this is sufficiently
important that we will want the full results known.<BR><BR>I have a
specific case of official testing of one of my stoves with unfavorable
results for Low-Heat Efficiency (simmering). I will add
that into the list of examples and provide the details very
soon.<BR><BR>I invite anyone else who has something to report about
simmering efficiency to also send details of their experiences, either
favorable or unfavorable or neutral. <BR><BR>The examination of
the questionable methods about simmer efficiency might take some days,
maybe weeks. But not the months or years that this debate
has been "simmering". <BR><BR>Remember: A testing
center that properly conducts testing using an endorsed but possibly
flawed procedure is NOT a culprit. The culprit is the testing
protocols, <U>IF found to be faulty. </U>And we hope that
the testing center people (employees and leaders) who understand the
technical aspects of the calculations will be among those who can help
resolve these serious issues.<BR><BR>Even those who developed
protocols that are eventually shown to be faulty are not
culprits. Mistakes can be made. However,
the culprits can include those who advocate a protocol that he or she
knows (or reasonably suspects) to be faulty.<BR><BR>Paul
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD <o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Email: <A href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target=_blank>psanders@ilstu.edu</A> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Skype: paultlud Phone: <A href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" target=_blank>+1-309-452-7072</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE><PRE><SPAN lang=EN-US>Website: <A href="http://www.drtlud.com" target=_blank>www.drtlud.com</A><o:p></o:p></SPAN></PRE>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-US><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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<P style="mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto"
class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-US> <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2015.0.5577 /
Virus Database: 4284/9121 - Release Date:
02/15/15<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><BR><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P><PRE>_______________________________________________<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE>Stoves mailing list<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><o:p> </o:p></PRE><PRE>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><o:p> </o:p></PRE><PRE>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><o:p> </o:p></PRE><PRE>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><A href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><o:p></o:p></PRE><PRE><o:p> </o:p></PRE></BLOCKQUOTE>
<P class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></P>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"
class=MsoNormal>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
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href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center>
<HR align=center SIZE=3 width="100%">
</DIV>
<P>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus
Database: 4284/9121 - Release Date: 02/15/15<o:p></o:p></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing
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your List Settings use the web
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more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR>
<P>
<HR>
<P></P><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2015.0.5577 / Virus
Database: 4284/9121 - Release Date: 02/15/15</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>