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<div class="moz-cite-prefix">To all,<br>
<br>
If you are going to reply to Teddy's OTHER issues, please change
the Subject line. We want this thread to be very focused on the
issues of the testing procedures.<br>
<br>
Thanks.<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 2/19/2015 5:26 PM, Cookswell Jikos wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAA-40HJ3te9TO=HHxuZw5Z-4JK_fw2RT_Si-i-Z1T1OLJi21VQ@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Dean and Paul and everyone else who has kindly
contributed to this discussion. I personally have never been
more fascinated by any other biomass stoveslist emails as much
as this recent discourse and I would like to thank all of you
who have contributed.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From my perspective as the owner of a small but growing
family business oriented around cookstoves and the provision
of sustainable woodfuel for the 'seed-to-ash cycle' of biomass
household energy in East Africa, and more recently the EU,
these emails have been of great interest to me and my business
partners.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I heartily encourage you both, and everyone else, to please
share more of your thoughts and reflections on these very
pertinent physical and social science aspects of these testing
issues. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If it is not out of line to suggest, I would also be very
keen to hear anyones inputs on the potential negative/positive
externalities and life cycle analysis observations of the
current and projected trends of biomass cookstove designers,
manufacturers, testers and marketers. To further clarify my
question - does anyone know of any studies, reports or papers
of what the overall impacts and resource use implications by
our industry from a cradle to grave cycle are? </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Does anyone know of anyone studying and/or certifying
''green'' cookstove manufacturing, testing and distribution
processes and generally how to improve our overall
efficiencies? i.e. use of renewable energy in production, use
of recycled materials, LEED certified factories, woodfuel
security programs vis-a-vis afforestation advocacy etc. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I feel that a part of this testing discussion could also be
geared to also studying the factors involved in the study of
stoves, the manufacture of stoves, the distribution of stoves
and the final decommissioning and recycling of our products
because after all, if we collectively aim to make a few
billion of the things, I think it will be a helpful thing to
know. :)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Kind regards and again, many thanks, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Teddy Kinyanjui</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>Cookswell Jikos</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke" target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div>
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href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos"
target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com"
target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br>
</div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div>
<div>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div>
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<div><font color="#008000" face="Tms Rmn">Save trees -
think twice before printing</font><font
color="#008000" face="Tms Rmn" size="1">.</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
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<div><br>
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<div><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Feb 20, 2015 at 12:31 AM, Dean
Still <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" target="_blank">deankstill@gmail.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Paul,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I'll try once again.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The WBT was designed to be a lab tool.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The CCT and KPT are used to make stoves that please
cooks, meet requirements in use.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The instructions in the WBT, CCT, KPT plainly state
the intentions.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Aprovecho uses the CCT when we want to design a stove
with the local cooks using their foods, pots. They
operate the stoves. The cooks should design the stove.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The WBT teaches how to improve stove technology. Two
very different uses.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>All Best,<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Dean</div>
</div>
<div class="HOEnZb">
<div class="h5">
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 1:06
PM, Paul Anderson <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<div>Dear Jiddu, and to all who share the
concerns about errors in testing of stoves.<br>
<br>
Your comments are greatly appreciated. Well
said. As we make progress on these topics,
the comments will be continually refined for
clarity of expression, and will be the
composite work of too many people to be
individually named. Thank you.<br>
<br>
To know of your credentials as a theoretical
physicist is appreciated. There could be
people with credentials on both or all sides
of the discussion. But you can talk to other
physicists much better than I can. In
debates (and courtrooms) both sides like to
have their expert witnesses. Thanks for
stepping forward. <br>
<br>
I especially like your comment that shows your
convictions:<br>
<blockquote type="cite"><font face="Arial">I
find myself in the position where I have
to tell my company to produce stoves with
lower rating because it will be better for
women that we build them for.</font></blockquote>
That is worth re-reading and repeating!!!<br>
<br>
As I get further into this topic, I am
realizing that invalid metrics must be
STOPPED. I do not yet know how much they have
hurt various stove designs, but I can see no
way that such metrics have been of any
positive value. ------<br>
<br>
----- Oh, and if some stoves are benefited
by such inaccurate metrics, and if the
manufacturers know that they have made claims
based on faulty testing, THAT would be truly
reprehensible. <br>
<br>
It is fast becoming (in my opinion) the time
when the defenders of the status quo about the
three Low Power measurements in the WBT will
need to speak up with some quite convincing
arguments.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<pre cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://www.drtlud.com" target="_blank">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
On 2/19/2015 1:56 AM, Jiddu Broersma wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear All,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>First,</div>
<div>Paul, thank you for keeping the
conversation going with great intentions.
Much appreciated.</div>
<div> <br>
</div>
<div>I have been a quiet follower of the
stovelist and I just caught up on the
simmering discussion. I believe it is a
necessary discussion.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I would like to share my opinion. It is
one from the perspective of a stove
manufacturer and a theoretical physicist.
<br>
I do this purely to contribute to the
discussion. Although I will formulate my
opinion direct with strong language, I
want to assure you all that I value
everyone's opinion equally.</div>
<div>Now, I will jump straight into the low
power metrics.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial"></span><b>Simmering</b><br>
As has been explained, simmering is a
'zero work' task, it does not have an
efficiency. Evaporating water and
overcoming heat losses require work, they
can have an efficiency. However, is anyone
interested in knowing the efficiency of
evaporating water? Or is anyone
calculating how much energy is lost from
the pot?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Either way, simmering is only a term
that we will hopefully agree on. Most
important is to understand the meaning of
the metrics that are calculated: Low power
specific fuel consumption, Low power CO
and Low power PM.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><b>Low Power Specific Fuel Consumption</b></div>
<div>From the WBT sheet I find that
(equation)</div>
<div>Low power specific fuel consumption =
(weight fuel consumed * calorific value of
fuel ) / (weight of water remaining *
minutes of simmering * 1000)</div>
<div>To explain in steps: </div>
<div>
<ol>
<li>Weight of fuel consumed divided by
minutes simmering is the burn rate.<br>
</li>
<li>If we multiply this by calorific
value we get the energy released by
the combustion per minute. Let's call
this the 'energy rate'.<br>
</li>
<li>If we divide this weight of water
remaining we just divide it by a
random number that has no meaning.
Keeping more food/water hot does not
require more energy. (I believe it
does the contrary, because volume
grows faster than surface when you
increase quantities)<br>
</li>
</ol>
</div>
<div>-> We have the energy released by
the combustion divided by a random number.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If we wish to calculate some kind of
efficiency number we require useful energy
(into pot) divided by used energy (from
combustion). What we have calculated is
nothing close to this.<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>We could possibly calculate the energy
into evaporation and heat loss from the
pot, but we have no interest in this. </div>
<div>Hence, a simmering task can't give us a
useful efficiency type of number!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>That was me as a physicist, as a
employee of a manufacturer I am concerned
that stoves are unfairly compared. Because
the system can be manipulated to gain
better results by using a pot with larger
volume capacity and higher insulating
properties. </div>
<div>Also another big issue is that more
efficient stoves can have lower rating at
the same power output. I'll explain by
example (as others have done before me):</div>
<div><i>Two stoves are equal except that one
has better heat transfer efficiency.
When they both run at the lowest power
possible (which is the same power for
both), the one with the better heat
transfer efficiency will have likely
evaporated more water because more
energy went into the pot. Do to more
evaporation it will end up with a rating
that is worse!</i></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> <span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial"></span><b>Low
power Emissions</b><br>
<span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial">Both
PM and CO are given in </span></div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial">weight
/ (minute * liters of water)</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial"><br>
</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial">Similar
breakdown:</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial">Weight
of emissions per minute is
straightforward.</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial">Dividing
this by number of liters in the pot is
simply dividing the emissions by a
number of your choice (the liters you
fill in the pot). It has no value to
stove rating.</span></div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Generally I think
that weight of emissions per minute is
not a bad metric. However, simmering is
not a task that can be compared fairly
between two stoves because it is not a
specific task! If we can't compare the
way two stoves simmer because we know
nothing about the useful energy that
went into the pot we are not allowed to
compare the results because it means
nothing without enough information.</font></div>
<div><span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><b>Wrap-up</b></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">The list of
complications that result from these
invalid simmering metrics goes on.
Please read again Crispin's and </font><span
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">Philip Lloyd's
comments for a more comprehensive list. </span></div>
<div> <span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial"></span><br>
<span
style="font-stretch:normal;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial">Worst
is that many manufacturers are
optimizing their products using the WBT
and that stoves are not actually
improving in the field. The WBT can
result into the production of bad stoves
for millions of already suffering
women! </span><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">I find myself in the
position where I have to tell my company
to produce stoves with lower rating
because it will be better for women that
we build them for.</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Arial">It is not a matter
of right or wrong, it is a matter of how
we stimulate the production of stoves
that are really improving lives. </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">My opinion is that
we need to review the meaning of metrics
at fundamental level. </font><span
style="font-family:Arial;font-size:13px">(Ie.
Boiling and simmering are not scientific
ways of describing a state of cooking
for stoves).</span></div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Due to the differences in opinion in
the stove world, I believe an external
review (scientific: engineers, physicists,
mathematicians) would be the most suitable
option. The review could simply explain
the physical meaning of all calculated
results. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Best regards,</div>
<div>Jiddu</div>
<div><br clear="all">
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><font
style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"
color="#666666"><b>Jiddu Broersma</b></font>
<div><font color="#666666"><b>Technology
and Organization Officer</b></font>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
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