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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-CA link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Dear Robert<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I was looking for your message from the Stoves list and didn’t see it. I received it directly because you have my address in the CC line.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>In case it didn’t post, here it is, everyone. Robert is pointing to a second authority capable of expertly conducting an external review of a test method. SGS is an international company with labs in many places. Like TUV Rhineland, they are involved in measurement systems as well as measurements and Standards development. TUV tends to be more expert at conceptualising testing systems and regulations (as I understand it). The SeTAR Centre has a 10 year agreement to have access to their experts through a South African-German scientific collaboration agreement between the Universities of Stuttgart and Johannesburg, through the efforts of Prof Annegarn. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>SGS Netherlands tests most biomass stoves that are allowed to be sold in the EU. They were contracted by the World Bank to review the SeTAR HTP protocol used in Mongolia to rate the <i>relative</i> performance of coal stove emissions and efficiency. Stoves selected for subsidy were promoted and replaced the ‘ger stoves’ in common use – about 185,000 over the past three years – which has already led to a 50% improvement in the air quality in Ulaanbaatar. Stove smoke now constitutes less than half the ambient PM<sub>2.5</sub>.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>The IWA 11:2012 calls for expert, external review of all test methods used. As far as I know, the only one to reach that point is the SeTAR HTP and that, only for relative performance, not absolute performance. SEET Lab is not an ISO 17025 qualified lab (yet). If anyone knows of any other high profile test that has been externally reviewed, please post the info on this list.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Note that IWA 11:2012 is an ISO process document calling for external, expert review. The ISO makes no claim that its own processes constitute ‘expert external review’. If someone starts to make the argument that it is, point to the IWA text, section 1. As Ronald Reagan said, “Trust, but verify.” <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>I know the World Bank won’t use any evaluation method that has not been validated by people other than those who wrote it because they have a due diligence requirement. The two tests used in Indonesia – SeTAR SOP 3.05x “emissions and fuel efficiency” and SeTAR SOP 1.05x “heat transfer efficiency” – were checked multiple times. Checking doesn’t guarantee perfection but it sure helps! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Not all organisations have this due diligence requirement. The UNFCCC for example is using un-reviewed tests for CDM projects. The same with Gold Standard as far as I know.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>When the ISO TC-285 produces its final work, it will still have to be examined externally by competent experts. There are two reasons: the ISO process is performed by volunteers and ‘whoever shows up’, the same as at the national standard level, save that they have to be anointed by their national representative organisation. The second is that “gaming the ISO process” is a sport that has been played since the ISO was formed. Any result guarantees nothing other than it is a result. We’d like to think we are 100% correct but everyone makes mistakes. (That is why Standards are regularly reviewed.) <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'>+++++++++++<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Robert van der Plas [mailto:rvanderplas@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 14:13<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; <br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>Cecil thanks for this comprehensive overview.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Another organization well set up to review the WBT protocol is SGS International. It currently tests all solid fuel stoves before entering the EU zone. SGS also reviewed the heating stove protocol in Mongolia.<o:p></o:p></p><p><a href="https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/mobile/?.src=Android">Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android</a><o:p></o:p></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:EN-US'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'>From:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif'> Robert van der Plas [mailto:rvanderplas@yahoo.com] <br><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 24, 2015 14:13<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves; <br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Examples of results of simmer efficiency Re: [Ethos] Additional presentations at ETHOS 2015<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></body></html>