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Ron Larson asked: <br>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>f.
I wonder if any TLUD proponent believes we can ever achieve a
TLUD stove as healthy as the LPG variety? (fans/blowers
permitted). Or sufficiently low emission to allow TLUD/fan
stoves to compete on a health basis with LPG? Same question
for rockets.</div>
</blockquote>
LPG is a REFINED fuel, produced to very specific standards. As a
liquid, it flows and mixes easily and is quite uniform. The
closest to refining of "biomass" is probably wood pellets. But
being made of solid particles (like sawdust), it is less uniform and
can have variations between manufacturers. And there are pellets
that are not from wood, so that contributes to additional
variability.<br>
<br>
But if using good quality wood pellets, and a well-made TLUD, with
forced primary and secondary air, and (in my opinion) separate
control of the primary and secondary air, the micro-gasification
processes will approach the cleanliness of LPG.<br>
<br>
Consider modern pellet burning heaters. I believe that their
emissions are quite low, but I do not have those numbers. And with
the use of a chimney with the pellets but not with the LPG, the
biomass is probably cleaner for heat INSIDE a closed space. <br>
<br>
We do not want to have a situation of the "best" being a enemy of
the "good" or "very very good". LPG is a fossil fuel that is
backed up by big business. Without similar financial resources,
biomass stoves will be challenged for quite a while to be as clean
as LPG.<br>
<br>
But is LPG as clean as an electric hotplate / electric stove? No,
and never will be. <br>
<br>
Note: Discussions comparing types of stoves should not focus on
only one issue (such as emissions). <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 3/2/2015 11:18 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:352EDA1A-960D-4858-858B-7BE2E9E05680@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252">
<div>Christina: (cc list)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
believe you are the first person to be advocating LPG on this
list. Your vision is receiving support from some important
actors in stove development. I can easily conceive that you
have a system that no biomass stove can compete with - mostly
on the basis of emissions and human health, but also probably on
saving time while cooking.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>But
I am confused about some messages I hear about LPG. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a.
I have hear of safety issues with LPG. Any data on safety?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>b.
I know nothing about the cost of LPG stoves or fuel. Can you
tell us the price of your stove (and the storage can) and the
cost of LPG fuel (sold by weight?) Does Guatemala subsidize LPG
prices?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>c. Could
you give us some basis for comparing with prices in Guatemala
for wood (sticks, chips, pellets) fuel? if you have these (and
LPG) prices on an MJ or per standard meal or day basis, that
would be helpful.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>d.
Because of the highly superior emissions characteristics (I
understood how good for the first time at the ETHOS conference),
I could get behind LPG stoves if that fuel was biomass-based -
and even more so if the fuel came with a co-product char (my
reasons for supporting char-making stove development). Do you
(or anyone) know of anyone working on a bio-LPG? (and one with
a char co-product?)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Googling
gave me this site: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.biomass-asia-workshop.jp/biomassws/09workshop/jp/full/16fujimoto.pdf">http://www.biomass-asia-workshop.jp/biomassws/09workshop/jp/full/16fujimoto.pdf</a>,
showing use of a CO-H2 syngas as one approach.</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and
also from Japan</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.ieatask33.org/app/webroot/files/file/2012/IEA%20Bioenergy%20Conference/SessionI4-Ogi.pdf">http://www.ieatask33.org/app/webroot/files/file/2012/IEA%20Bioenergy%20Conference/SessionI4-Ogi.pdf</a></div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and
this one seems pretty well done;</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.propanecouncil.org/uploadedFiles/Council/Research_and_Development/New_research_programs/Fuel_Parameters_and_Analysis/REP_15866%20Expert%20Analysis%20of%20Biopropane.pdf">http://www.propanecouncil.org/uploadedFiles/Council/Research_and_Development/New_research_programs/Fuel_Parameters_and_Analysis/REP_15866%20Expert%20Analysis%20of%20Biopropane.pdf</a></div>
<div>and there are more cites - but I think that there may now be
zero bio-LPG.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>None
of these mention char - maybe the Cool Planet approach to a
bio-gasoline can be modified.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>e.
Does LPG fuel in Guatemala come with a well-defined (controlled,
certified) mix of propane and butane?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Thanks
in advance for any more of a sales pitch for LPG that you can
provide. (Your web site <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://gentegas.com/">http://gentegas.com/</a> is very
well done.)</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>f.
I wonder if any TLUD proponent believes we can ever achieve a
TLUD stove as healthy as the LPG variety? (fans/blowers
permitted). Or sufficiently low emission to allow TLUD/fan
stoves to compete on a health basis with LPG? Same question
for rockets.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ron</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
<div>
<div>On Mar 2, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Christina Espinosa <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu">c_espinosa1@u.pacific.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
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<div class="gmail_extra"><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 11:32 AM,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com"
target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>></span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);">Dear Christina</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size: 11pt;
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31,
73, 125);"> </span></p>
<div><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:
12pt;"><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">></span>Its
a good first step to testing something for
larger scale, but funders will want to see
that their investment is having an impact and
fuel stacking will continue to provide
problems for us in the cookstoves sector.<span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The
critical things seems to be that program
funders what to know that they are getting
what they are paying for. It has been a
concern to me that most lab tests don’t
predict what the stove will do, yet they are
almost always used to ‘select stoves’. After
that, they are promoted there is only some
field checking. We call that ‘picking
winners’. A ‘winner’ is the lucky product that
gets promoted. Often behind that promotion is
a claim that ‘this is the best stove’ based on
numbers that are not typical of what is going
to happen in the field. We have to be
practical about this. The idea that there is a
‘best stove’ is alive and well, yet the best
is different in different circumstances. That
is why we are doing ‘contextual testing’.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">The
first thing to do is not to ‘pick winners’.
The screening should be something like,
‘remove from the candidate list everything
that is not worth promoting as far as we are
concerned’ which in the case of the CSI is
anything that does not get one star in each
category of PM, CO and fuel consumption.
Depending on how picky you are, you might end
up with one or five products. You have to test
and see. High altitude stoves burning dry,
woody biomass (bushes) will be quite different
from stoves burning damp wood in the Congo.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">But
performing that elimination round means having
some clue what people are burning and what
they are going to do with the stoves. You
can’t pick a stove ‘in absentia’. If you want
low PM, you have to test them using the fuels
and burn cycle people are going to use because
the PM production is strongly affected by the
fuel. Some stoves are designed to burn
particular fuels (well, hopefully that are)
and they should perform much better than
stoves that aren’t.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What
this means is that there must be foreknowledge
of the community before one picks or ranks
stoves to perform there.</span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>I agree. Another thing that I find very difficult
with non-market based approaches is that the consumer
at times doesn't get to choose the stove, the program
does. They don't get to choose the style, color, and
options that regular consumers do.<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
</div>
<span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">></span>We
are getting ready to do SUMs and an adoption
study here in Guatemala with LPG, but most of
the households are adopting pressure cookers, so
it will be interesting to see if we have lots of
fuel stacking with the pressure cooker.<span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
</span>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Do you
mean people are going to be using LPG for a
pressure cooker and then wood for something
else? I want to be clear if you consider stove
stacking and fuel stacking as separate things,
then how do you count that in your surveying?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>The study includes CO, PM and SUMs monitoring. The
baseline before the introduction of the LPG stove will
include SUMs monitoring of any stove in the household.
At the time of the introduction of the LPG stove both
stoves (or all stoves) will be monitored with the
SUMs.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">What do
people cook in a pressure cooker, and what
effect does it have on fuel consumption?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Here people typically cook beans for long periods
of times on wood. Typically households in Guatemala
that use both wood and LPG tend to use wood for
cooking beans and tortillas. Most families that have a
pressure cooker here use it every 2-3 days to cook
beans. If you cook beans with wood it can take
typically 3 hours, but some families leave them
cooking all night long so they don't have to tend the
fire. If you cook beans with gas typically 2 and a
half hours. In the pressure cooker 1 hour 15 minutes
total. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cecil Cook
is very clear there should be a period of
re-selection (viewing the lab tests as
‘pre-selection’ or ‘winnowing’) that involves
focus groups. Focus group composition is very
important. Being a random person does not
necessarily make one a good focus group member.</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>This is interesting what do you mean by
re-selection? We are not trying the funding model I
was thinking about. Our air pollution and adoption
study is market based, so consumers are picking the
stove model that works for their needs (home, baking,
business, etc.). We ran lots of different types of
focus groups before we designed the components of the
business model and educational material.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">A
difficulty we faced with the CSI Pilot is that
people have several stoves and replacing one of
them does not mean they use the new one only. We
have to accept (and hope) that eventually all
will be replaced with improved products. How are
you going to deal with that? Do people have
multiple stoves, burners, rice cookers etc that
they use every week?</span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Some people are ready to abandon wood completely
and other families will continue to use both fuels for
different things, it depends on the type of current
stove. We are working now in urban and peri-urban
areas. We obviously hope for full adoption, but thats
unrealistic in many cases. Currently we are trying to
study when families do switch, do they continue to use
wood (yes, for certain things), what do they use that
wood to cook (usually beans and tortillas), and if
they purchased a stove package that included a
pressure cooker and a plancha for torillas did they
fuel stack less or stop using the wood stove
completely. The idea is that we are trying to learn
about behavior of consumers that switch from wood to
LPG. There is an educational component as well, but
again we are trying to assess everything.<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Thanks<span
class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br>
Crispin</font></span></span></p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>Best,<br>
</div>
<div>Christina<br>
</div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color:
rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid;
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div link="blue" vlink="purple" lang="EN-CA">
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom: 12pt;"><span
style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><span
class="HOEnZb"></span></span></p>
</div>
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<br clear="all">
<br>
--<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br>
<div class="gmail_signature">Christina Espinosa<br>
University of the Pacific '10<br>
School of International Studies<br>
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<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
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to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
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