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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You say</span> “We have (MUST have) control over the biomass and task if we ever want to have a stove test that can be sent to any qualified lab in the World and come back with all the same results.” <span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>We want to test stoves, not labs! Labs should be able to be given a protocol and reproduce the same result within reasonable limits. That’s what labs are good at. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I thought we were trying to get a better stove – not a better test - and to find out if one stove performs better than another in a given duty. So the first problem is to define the duty, and that is almost entirely set by the user – he/she defines the fuel and what needs to be cooked. The fuel and what needs to be cooked will vary greatly from place to place. Then you need some agreed metrics to measure the stove’s performance <u>in that duty</u>. Finally you can get to decide if one stove is better than another <u>in that duty</u>. Of course, there are a host of duties – different parts of the world really are different.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So what metrics do we use to measure whether one stove is better than another? We could use the amount of fuel consumed in the chosen duty, but then we have to ask if the user is really interested in the quantity of fuel. The work that I have done suggests that it doesn’t rank very high – once you get to a reasonable level of fuel use, the user is happy. We could use ease of use, but that is really difficult to measure, because the cooks learn the tricks of the trade as they grow accustomed to a fuel/stove combination. The one metric that the users really seem to value is whether a stove burns the user’s choice of fuel more cleanly than another stove. If it isn’t very “clean” (however that is defined) then it is likely to taint the food being cooked. The cleaner the burn, the less the unwelcome flavour (although sometimes the flavour is welcomed – think smoked salmon). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And with “clean” as the metric, there IS something on which the international community seems to agree. Emissions from stoves are fingered by organisations like the World Health Organization as having an adverse impact on people’s lives – indeed, on their life expectancy. So cleaner stoves is not merely my target – it underpins the whole rationale for the Global Alliance, for instance. We must not be diverted into things like the Clean Development Mechanism, whose primary target is carbon, a doubtful candidate for a pollutant when you consider how essential the stuff is to life. Indeed, history seems likely to view the US court’s labeling of carbon as a pollutant as one of this generation’s more unlikely aberrations, sort of like the belief in slavery 200 years ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Hope that helps clarify things.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kind regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Philip <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Frank Shields<br><b>Sent:</b> 17 March 2015 08:09<br><b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Test methods for cook stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Dear Philip,<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>see below<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Mar 16, 2015, at 11:15 PM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Frank</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You say “</span>There are two we are interested in when picking out a stove. (a) biomass / task and (b) time / task<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>”</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I beg to differ. We have little choice of biomass or task – both are almost entirely determined by the user. Then the important variable is NOT the time for a task, but the emissions during the (pre-determined) tasks. Granted, the shorter the time the lower the emissions are likely to be, but that doesn’t necessarily follow.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We have (MUST have) control over the biomass and task if we ever want to have a stove test that can be sent to any qualified lab in the World and come back with all the same results. We will continue getting nowhere, as we have for the past ten years and continue to do so, until the basics of method development is followed. That is, keep one variable and control all the others so to notice changes in the one we target. We are just piling on variables like there is no tomorrow. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Our target is cleaner cookstoves, fully accepted by users. I cannot follow your logic in suggesting that our choice of biomass/fuel and our choice of task can be at all relevant to achieving that target.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>YOUR target is cleaner cookstoves. The person designing the legs for the stove has a target of making the stove more stable and the person inspecting the paint job has a target of making the stove look nice. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Emissions is no more important than the paint job because neither stove will make it to market until those (and all) Conditions have been met. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><br><br><o:p></o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Kind regards</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Prof Philip Lloyd</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Energy Institute</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cape Peninsula University of Technology</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><a href="Tel:021">Tel:021</a> 460 4216</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Fax:021 460 3828</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Cell: 083 441 5247</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span class=apple-converted-space><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> </span></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"><span style='color:purple'>mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>]<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class=apple-converted-space> </span></b>Frank Shields<br><b>Sent:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>17 March 2015 06:52<br><b>To:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b><span class=apple-converted-space> </span>Re: [Stoves] Test methods for cook stoves</span><o:p></o:p></p></div></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Greetings Stovers,<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>My suggestions:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Test methods for comparing Stoves.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt'>1)<span style='font-size:7.0pt'> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span>The units of interest: There are two we are interested in when picking out a stove. (a) biomass / task and (b) time / task<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt'>2)<span style='font-size:7.0pt'> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span>Variable = the Stove. We swap out different stoves, run the test and compare the results for biomass per task and time per task.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoListParagraph style='text-indent:-18.0pt'>3)<span style='font-size:7.0pt'> <span class=apple-converted-space> </span></span>Controls; there are two: (a) fuel at one end and (b) task at the other.<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Control (a) Fuel<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We walk up to the stockpile of fuel in town that has been gathered and piled and pull out what we want. If we want to test a Rocket Stove using 2.5cm X 2.5cm X 10 cm long kiln dried sticks we pull out the bigger pieces and have them sawed and dried. The rest of the pile we carry back to the forest and scatter around under the trees. Paul for his TLUD needs uniform pieces to keep an even flame front so he takes out what he wants, chips them to size, and screens out the fines. The fines and overs are carried back to the forest and scattered. Richard collects the material he can turn to mush and sends the rest back. Stoves using pellets and sticks are done the same. Use whatever you want as long as it comes from the pile.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Control (b) Task<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The task chosen must have a clear end point. The start is easy – it’s when the match is struck.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Everything else is NOT part of the test. Our goal is to reduce by elimination variables and get control over the ones left so the test can be conducted at any lab and all will come out with the same results.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>We don’t care about the chemistry of the gases, smoke, 2.5 pm, stability of the stove, toxic chemicals, hot surfaces that can burn, or anything else. If Stove A works better than Stove B then check the gases, make some adjustments and have Stove B re-tested. If, for example, Stove A completes a task using less biomass and in a shorter time than Stove B but stove A produces a lot of smoke – then Stove A wins.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Everything else are ‘Conditions’ that must be meet. There are lots of them: paint streaked with runs on new stoves produced is a condition unacceptable, poor welds, toxic galvanized metals, poor quality metal – all conditions unacceptable. Smoke, toxic gases, hot surfaces or unstable are all conditions unacceptable. Too heavy to move or won’t take my favorite pot are more conditions. But these have nothing to do with the Test.<span class=apple-converted-space> </span><i>We need to keep the Test real simple</i>. All the Conditions in the list must pass or don’t bother doing The Test OR make corrections before testing.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Also;<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Control (a) Fuel; we are interested in mass of the biomass used but we can normalize it to energy for convenience and when comparing ‘like fuels’ when the on-site fuels are not available. When measuring energy I fully agree with the method Dean used at Stove Camp. The problem is there are so many unknowns and guesses of the energy content of the different parts of the fuel. Perhaps its possible to get good precision (replicates) but I can’t see how the accuracy (real value) could even be close. Therefore, without knowing of a better replacement, I believe the E450v energy value for the fuel is the best one to use because it is easier to determine. I realize E450v has its own limitations.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Frank<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>(retired) <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Frank Shields<br><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com"><span style='color:purple'>franke@cruzio.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><span style='color:purple'>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"><span style='color:purple'>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"><span style='color:purple'>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div></body></html>