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<!--StartFragment--><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Dear Philip,</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#18376a" face="Calibri"><span style="font-size: 15pt;"> </span><span style="font-size: 20px;">‘</span><span style="font-size: 15pt;">reply below'</span></font><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">I agree that developing the
improved stove is research, and that once the improvements are proved to the
developer’s satisfaction there needs to be one or more independent tests
- where we differ is on defining the tests.</span><span style="font-size:
16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">I believe we have to start by
developing a baseline of what is actually happening in the target community –
what do they cook, how do they cook it, what are the primary fuels, how much of
those fuels do they actually use when cooking, what utensils do they employ (if
any), and what are the emissions when they are cooking.</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Then the improved stove is used
with the same fuel cooking the same meal in the same way using the same
utensils to see how much fuel it uses and what the emissions are. Only then can
you be reasonably certain that you have a better cookstove.</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> FRANK> Let me count the variables: 1) What they cook
(should we use five main items? X 2) how do they cook it (are there several
ways?) X
3) What are the primary fuels? (are there several available? X 4)
How much of the fuels do they use or how much is left? X 5) what utensils do they use (are there
several for the same task?) X 6) and what are the emissions? (we take
readings of several constituents). = [A LOT of combinations to test!]<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">FRANK> That’s why I suggest
testing the kitchen utensils. I’m guessing
there is about two item used for cooking on a small stove: a pot for watery
foods and a plancha for frying(?) type foods. Are there others? So we replace
water with a formulated common starchy food item they cook. Thanks – I am good
with that. We start the clock when the
match is struck > start timing when the starchy food reaches a temperature
and plot the temperature as we keep it constant for the agreed upon time for
the food to cook. Something like that. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">FRANK> For the plancha we start
time with match. Continue to heat until temperature is reached (water drop
spatter, oil smoking, or some other means?) and keep constant for a specified
length of time. Do we need to actually
cook some food? I don’t think so. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Timing the boiling of water, as you
suggest, is not an inherently good test because the users don’t necessarily
boil water rapidly. They may bring their starchy food to the boil fairly
slowly, to be certain of not burning it, and then hold it at temperature for 20
minutes to complete the cooking. If you then take them what you believe to be a
better stove, and it DOES burn the food, then you are lost before you have even
started. Or they may heat their plancha to nearly red-heat, and toss the
meat onto it with a smear of oil, wait 30 seconds until one side is sealed,
turn it over, seal the other side, then move it to a cooler part of the plancha
to cook the inner parts of the flesh slowly. What does your water-boiling
test tell you about that type of cooking? Absolutely nothing useful.</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">In a word, one protocol does not
fit all. You have to develop the protocol to suit the user, not yourself.</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">FRANK> We are in complete
agreement in understanding the variables. But we can’t test all variables and
any test we come up with will not be as good as the actual person using it
(like everything in the World that’s sold).
Field tests may be the way to go but who gets to have their stove
tested? The ones with the money (its
real expensive) OR already having an ‘in’? It should be chosen from a ‘most
likely to succeed’ based on preliminary tests – like what I have been
describing. IMO <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">FRANK> If we are going to come
up with a test method we need to sort through all the complexity and reduce it
to a few items that people can afford to have tested and best represent the
actual real World. We can’t keep waiting for ‘perfect’ because it will not be
perfect. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Thanks<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Frank<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Good question about smoke from the
actual food rather than from the fire. Let me think about it!</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">I hope that helps.</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Kind regards</span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span><span style="font-size:16.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman""><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A">Philip<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;color:#18376A"> </span></p>
<!--EndFragment--></div><div apple-content-edited="true">
Frank Shields<br><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><br><br>
</div>
<br><div><div>On Mar 19, 2015, at 1:05 PM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div lang="EN-US" link="blue" vlink="purple" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Frank<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I agree that developing the improved stove is research, and that once the improvements are proved to the developer’s satisfaction there needs to be one or more independent tests - where we differ is on defining the tests.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I believe we have to start by developing a baseline of what is actually happening in the target community – what do they cook, how do they cook it, what are the primary fuels, how much of those fuels do they actually use when cooking, what utensils do they employ (if any), and what are the emissions when they are cooking.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Then the improved stove is used with the same fuel cooking the same meal in the same way using the same utensils to see how much fuel it uses and what the emissions are. Only then can you be reasonably certain that you have a better cookstove.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Timing the boiling of water, as you suggest, is not an inherently good test because the users don’t necessarily boil water rapidly. They may bring their starchy food to the boil fairly slowly, to be certain of not burning it, and then hold it at temperature for 20 minutes to complete the cooking. If you then take them what you believe to be a better stove, and it DOES burn the food, then you are lost before you have even started. Or they may heat their plancha to nearly red-heat, and toss the meat onto it with a smear of oil, wait 30 seconds until one side is sealed, turn it over, seal the other side, then move it to a cooler part of the plancha to cook the inner parts of the flesh slowly. What does your water-boiling test tell you about that type of cooking? Absolutely nothing useful.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">In a word, one protocol does not fit all. You have to develop the protocol to suit the user, not yourself.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Good question about smoke from the actual food rather than from the fire. Let me think about it!<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I hope that helps.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Kind regards<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Philip<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank Shields<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>19 March 2015 08:32<br><b>To:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Test methods for cook stoves<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Dear Philip,</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">FRANK> Of the many testing programs I have been involved with like Drinking water, wastewater, potting mixes, soils, compost, asbestos golf course etc. it is never assumed following test protocol and getting the same results is “what labs are good at.” We are inspected for the right equipment, chain of custody protocol, chemicals and knowledge and then we receive samples through the year to test and prove we can get the correct results. My thinking is that this is what was planned for stoves testing and they would be looking for independent labs that could pass the requirements and become Stove Testing facilities. But that has never seemed to be the case. So who are the people testing the stoves and providing the data for comparison? And do they have an unfair advantage over the small start-up backyard stove designer? and is the testing standardize to give fair comparison?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">You say</span><span style="font-size: 16pt;"><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>“We have (MUST have) control over the biomass and task if we ever want to have a stove test that can be sent to any qualified lab in the World and come back with all the same results.”<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">We want to test stoves, not labs! Labs should be able to be given a protocol and reproduce the same result within reasonable limits. That’s what labs are good at.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">I thought we were trying to get a better stove – not a better test - and to find out if one stove performs better than another in a given duty. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">FRANK> Trying to get a better stove is research. All data is kept in-house and not for the public. Once the stove has been made a ‘better stove’ it is sent to the independent Stove Lab for testing and compared to the other stoves. This is the only fair way to do this and until the stoves are tested this way there will always be suspect and bios.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">So the first problem is to define the duty, and that is almost entirely set by the user – he/she defines the fuel and what needs to be cooked. The fuel and what needs to be cooked will vary greatly from place to place. Then you need some agreed metrics to measure the stove’s performance<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u>in that duty</u>. Finally you can get to decide if one stove is better than another<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><u>in that duty</u>. Of course, there are a host of duties – different parts of the world really are different.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> FRANK> A question: When you are cooking and measure emissions does the volatiles from the food or oils show up on the emissions analysis? And should we consider these along with the volatiles from just the combustion process?</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">FRANK> What I am thinking is there are lots of ‘duties’ but few cooking utensils. A pot for boiling water used for many things like rice and soups. A hot plate used for many foods. So we design tests for the different cooking utensils (without food) to be used for comparison. A test might go like this:</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Value 1)</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">We determine the E450v of a fuel (% by wt) that is used by all labs doing the test and from a fuel available at the marketing location. The weigh of fuel used in the task is determined to give us the energy used. This is a sharp value.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Value 2)</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">One person holds the match in one hand and the striker in the other. Another person has their hand on the stopwatch. When the match is struck the Starting time begins. A sharp value.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> Value 3)</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Once the water starts to boil another start time is in place. We boil for 30 minutes. A fuzzy value. (Someone needs to come up with a better procedure to determined when boiling starts).</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Value 4)</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">At the end of exactly 30 minutes boil the stopwatch is pressed to give us the total time to complete the task. A sharp value. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">So we have only 4 values and only one is fuzzy and needs improving. That is not a bad test. It gives us the biomass used and the time to complete the task. Simple for a group of labs to show they know how to operate the Champion TLUD. These values can then be used along when doing emission testing to verify the stove was operated correctly (and reproducible) during the emission test.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 16pt;"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">So what metrics do we use to measure whether one stove is better than another? We could use the amount of fuel consumed in the chosen duty, but then we have to ask if the user is really interested in the quantity of fuel. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">FRANK> The stove test (not research that determines improvements) just provides values. The values from testing along with info on the biomass used is published and those interested can pick out the values of interest. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">The work that I have done suggests that it doesn’t rank very high – once you get to a reasonable level of fuel use, the user is happy. We could use ease of use, but that is really difficult to measure, because the cooks learn the tricks of the trade as they grow accustomed to a fuel/stove combination. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">FRANK> Agree – the market and customer satisfaction will determine if they like the looks and how it operates. They should be given a choice of approved stoves that pass all the Conditions. You will soon find out the ones they like.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> The one metric that the users really seem to value is whether a stove burns the user’s choice of fuel more cleanly than another stove. If it isn’t very “clean” (however that is defined) then it is likely to taint the food being cooked. The cleaner the burn, the less the unwelcome flavour (although sometimes the flavour is welcomed – think smoked salmon). </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">FRANK> Customer satisfaction – from a list of independently tested and approved stoves. They are all ‘clean’ because they made the list. Let the dirtier of the clean list be chosen for those liking flavor. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">And with “clean” as the metric, there IS something on which the international community seems to agree. Emissions from stoves are fingered by organisations like the World Health Organization as having an adverse impact on people’s lives – indeed, on their life expectancy. So cleaner stoves is not merely my target – it underpins the whole rationale for the Global Alliance, for instance. We must not be diverted into things like the Clean Development Mechanism, whose primary target is carbon, a doubtful candidate for a pollutant when you consider how essential the stuff is to life. Indeed, history seems likely to view the US court’s labeling of carbon as a pollutant as one of this generation’s more unlikely aberrations, sort of like the belief in slavery 200 years ago.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">FRANK> My suggestion is to test different stoves (as outlined above) to get a base line of the fuel and time. Then adding emissions to the test package (much like I think it is being done now) and collect the emission data. Form a bell curve of the results and come up with limits on pm, CO etc. Base the limits such that, perhaps, 75 % of the stoves pass. That provides gently pressure to get better stoves and as the stoves get better the limits can be lowered. The limits are different for each fuel group and stove type because places that only have oily type fuels cannot expect to have emissions of those that can burn walnut shells. (?)</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">There are a lot of variables to get control of. We need independent labs providing the comparison data so there is an even playing field for all stove designers and the data can be trusted. The train is not even going in the right direction to accomplish this. </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Thanks</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Frank</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Just retired : )</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Frank Shields</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">franke@cruzio.com</a></span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Hope that helps clarify things.</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Kind regards</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 15pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(24, 55, 106);">Philip</span><o:p></o:p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Frank Shields<o:p></o:p></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">franke@cruzio.com</a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On Mar 18, 2015, at 12:33 PM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">plloyd@mweb.co.za</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><o:p></o:p></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Frank</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You say</span><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>“We have (MUST have) control over the biomass and task if we ever want to have a stove test that can be sent to any qualified lab in the World and come back with all the same results.”<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">We want to test stoves, not labs! Labs should be able to be given a protocol and reproduce the same result within reasonable limits. That’s what labs are good at.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I thought we were trying to get a better stove – not a better test - and to find out if one stove performs better than another in a given duty. So the first problem is to define the duty, and that is almost entirely set by the user – he/she defines the fuel and what needs to be cooked. The fuel and what needs to be cooked will vary greatly from place to place. Then you need some agreed metrics to measure the stove’s performance<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><u>in that duty</u>. Finally you can get to decide if one stove is better than another<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><u>in that duty</u>. Of course, there are a host of duties – different parts of the world really are different.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">So what metrics do we use to measure whether one stove is better than another? We could use the amount of fuel consumed in the chosen duty, but then we have to ask if the user is really interested in the quantity of fuel. The work that I have done suggests that it doesn’t rank very high – once you get to a reasonable level of fuel use, the user is happy. We could use ease of use, but that is really difficult to measure, because the cooks learn the tricks of the trade as they grow accustomed to a fuel/stove combination. The one metric that the users really seem to value is whether a stove burns the user’s choice of fuel more cleanly than another stove. If it isn’t very “clean” (however that is defined) then it is likely to taint the food being cooked. The cleaner the burn, the less the unwelcome flavour (although sometimes the flavour is welcomed – think smoked salmon). </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">And with “clean” as the metric, there IS something on which the international community seems to agree. Emissions from stoves are fingered by organisations like the World Health Organization as having an adverse impact on people’s lives – indeed, on their life expectancy. So cleaner stoves is not merely my target – it underpins the whole rationale for the Global Alliance, for instance. We must not be diverted into things like the Clean Development Mechanism, whose primary target is carbon, a doubtful candidate for a pollutant when you consider how essential the stuff is to life. Indeed, history seems likely to view the US court’s labeling of carbon as a pollutant as one of this generation’s more unlikely aberrations, sort of like the belief in slavery 200 years ago.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Hope that helps clarify things.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Kind regards</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Philip</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank Shields<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>17 March 2015 08:09<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Test methods for cook stoves</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Dear Philip,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">see below<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">On Mar 16, 2015, at 11:15 PM, Philip Lloyd <<a href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">plloyd@mweb.co.za</span></a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Dear Frank</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">You say “</span>There are two we are interested in when picking out a stove. (a) biomass / task and (b) time / task<span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">”</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">I beg to differ. We have little choice of biomass or task – both are almost entirely determined by the user. Then the important variable is NOT the time for a task, but the emissions during the (pre-determined) tasks. Granted, the shorter the time the lower the emissions are likely to be, but that doesn’t necessarily follow.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We have (MUST have) control over the biomass and task if we ever want to have a stove test that can be sent to any qualified lab in the World and come back with all the same results. We will continue getting nowhere, as we have for the past ten years and continue to do so, until the basics of method development is followed. That is, keep one variable and control all the others so to notice changes in the one we target. We are just piling on variables like there is no tomorrow. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Our target is cleaner cookstoves, fully accepted by users. I cannot follow your logic in suggesting that our choice of biomass/fuel and our choice of task can be at all relevant to achieving that target.</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">YOUR target is cleaner cookstoves. The person designing the legs for the stove has a target of making the stove more stable and the person inspecting the paint job has a target of making the stove look nice. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Emissions is no more important than the paint job because neither stove will make it to market until those (and all) Conditions have been met. <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><br><br><br><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Kind regards</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Prof Philip Lloyd</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Energy Institute</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cape Peninsula University of Technology</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">PO Box 652, Cape Town 8000</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"><a href="tel:021" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">Tel:021</span></a><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>460 4216</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Fax:021 460 3828</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);">Cell: 083 441 5247</span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);"> </span><o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="border-style: solid none none; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;"><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><b><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">From:</span></b><span class="apple-converted-space"><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif;">Stoves [<a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a>]<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><b>On Behalf Of<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></b>Frank Shields<br><b>Sent:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>17 March 2015 06:52<br><b>To:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Subject:</b><span class="apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] Test methods for cook stoves</span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Greetings Stovers,<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">My suggestions:<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Test methods for comparing Stoves.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;">1)<span style="font-size: 7pt;"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span>The units of interest: There are two we are interested in when picking out a stove. (a) biomass / task and (b) time / task<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;">2)<span style="font-size: 7pt;"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Variable = the Stove. We swap out different stoves, run the test and compare the results for biomass per task and time per task.<o:p></o:p></p><p class="MsoListParagraph" style="margin-right: 0cm; margin-left: 0cm; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; text-indent: -18pt;">3)<span style="font-size: 7pt;"> <span class="apple-converted-space"> </span></span>Controls; there are two: (a) fuel at one end and (b) task at the other.<o:p></o:p></p><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Control (a) Fuel<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We walk up to the stockpile of fuel in town that has been gathered and piled and pull out what we want. If we want to test a Rocket Stove using 2.5cm X 2.5cm X 10 cm long kiln dried sticks we pull out the bigger pieces and have them sawed and dried. The rest of the pile we carry back to the forest and scatter around under the trees. Paul for his TLUD needs uniform pieces to keep an even flame front so he takes out what he wants, chips them to size, and screens out the fines. The fines and overs are carried back to the forest and scattered. Richard collects the material he can turn to mush and sends the rest back. Stoves using pellets and sticks are done the same. Use whatever you want as long as it comes from the pile.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Control (b) Task<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">The task chosen must have a clear end point. The start is easy – it’s when the match is struck.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Everything else is NOT part of the test. Our goal is to reduce by elimination variables and get control over the ones left so the test can be conducted at any lab and all will come out with the same results.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">We don’t care about the chemistry of the gases, smoke, 2.5 pm, stability of the stove, toxic chemicals, hot surfaces that can burn, or anything else. If Stove A works better than Stove B then check the gases, make some adjustments and have Stove B re-tested. If, for example, Stove A completes a task using less biomass and in a shorter time than Stove B but stove A produces a lot of smoke – then Stove A wins.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Everything else are ‘Conditions’ that must be meet. There are lots of them: paint streaked with runs on new stoves produced is a condition unacceptable, poor welds, toxic galvanized metals, poor quality metal – all conditions unacceptable. Smoke, toxic gases, hot surfaces or unstable are all conditions unacceptable. Too heavy to move or won’t take my favorite pot are more conditions. But these have nothing to do with the Test.<span class="apple-converted-space"> </span><i>We need to keep the Test real simple</i>. All the Conditions in the list must pass or don’t bother doing The Test OR make corrections before testing.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Also;<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Control (a) Fuel; we are interested in mass of the biomass used but we can normalize it to energy for convenience and when comparing ‘like fuels’ when the on-site fuels are not available. When measuring energy I fully agree with the method Dean used at Stove Camp. The problem is there are so many unknowns and guesses of the energy content of the different parts of the fuel. Perhaps its possible to get good precision (replicates) but I can’t see how the accuracy (real value) could even be close. Therefore, without knowing of a better replacement, I believe the E450v energy value for the fuel is the best one to use because it is easier to determine. I realize E450v has its own limitations.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Regards<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Frank<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">(retired) <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;">Frank Shields<br><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">franke@cruzio.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a></span><o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"> <o:p></o:p></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Helvetica, sans-serif;">_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;"><span style="color: purple;">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;"><o:p> </o:p></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>