<div dir="ltr">Hi Jiddu,<div><br></div><div>It seems to me that it is not possible to know from a lab test if the stove will do well in a market. And it is necessary to be in the market anyway to sell the stove. Evolving the stove product with input from the potential buyer and user in a market gets the information you need. How much food should the stove cook?, what fuel will be used?, one pot, two pot, three pot?, the price? These questions are answered in the market not in a lab where the information is not available. Since the stove project is located in the market anyway and needs to know the requirements we use the market tests to inform the project.</div><div><br></div><div>For this reason the WBT, CCT, KPT combination was invented. Each test for a different purpose but together to create a stove product that works on the many levels required.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div><br></div><div>Dean</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 2:36 AM, Jiddu Broersma <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:jiddu@praktidesign.com" target="_blank">jiddu@praktidesign.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><p class="MsoNormal">Dear Frank, Crispin, Philip and everybody,</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">Thank you for the interesting discussion.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">I totally understand your desire to reduce the number of variables for testing. I would prefer it too if the stoves I design could be tested one single time in order to have it’s performance assessed, external testing costs money and each variable you add increases the cost (and time).<br>The number of variables Frank mentioned (2*3*4*5*6) is not an overestimation in my view. There is many combinations of fuel and cooking, but we also have to consider that we are creating a product for the whole world (well at least 1-3 billion people).</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br>If you design stoves you would probably want to pick one (or a few) markets for your stove. <br>Imagine you pick a market, optimize a stove for that market and then have average external test results for your stove because the ‘global’ test doesn’t represent the cooking in that market. You are now listed average out of thousands of products, how will that market ever pick your stove as most appropriate one? Even though yours is the only one optimized for that market.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">Personally, I love Crispin’s analogy with race tracks so I use it now. (anyone who missed it, please read to understand the following, I copied it again underneath my message)</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">First, I agree with Crispin we need a universal set of equations (or at least scientific set up) on how certain metrics are calculated.</p><p class="MsoNormal">But besides that imagine if each country/market has it’s own race tracks (cooking cycles) that explain the power levels, duration and more about how people cook. I could design and optimize a stove to a specific market and the external test results would reflect this! Now everybody can comfortably go and recommend my stove. </p><p class="MsoNormal"><br>Imaging if this set of race tracks was available online as a resource, I could<br>- optimize stoves from across the world simply by replicating the race track in my lab (assuming that I could get the fuel, etc.)<br>- I can identify all markets that my stove is relevant for, simply by testing it against various tracks.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">This looks to me like an optimal situation, but of course it is not that easy. How do you pick your race tracks such that they are representative of the population you describe and not too specific such that the population you describe is still large enough to represent an interesting market for manufacturers/distributors to enter.<br>At this point a lab guy like me has to be quiet and let social scientist, and field workers decide whether this is actually viable. Although, it seems from the Indonesia example that it is.</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal">Best regards,<br>Jiddu</p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p><p class="MsoNormal"> </p><p class="MsoNormal">RACE TRACKS<br><i><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Like cars, there is a start and warm-up cycle which has to be included in</span></i><i><span style="font-size:9.5pt;font-family:Arial;color:black"><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">the test because that is part of real life. Power stations and fixed</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">boilers, however, are usually run continuously and testing them under</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">?constant conditions? is the norm (and is reasonable).</span><br><br><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Stoves are almost never run continuously and certainly not at a constant</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">power. Thus performance needs to consider not only the starting cycle, but</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">the running cycle with its ups and downs. When testing vehicles, this is</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">done: the car is put through a driving cycle on a test bed. It does not have</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">to go on the road because the road slope and the power requirement can be</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">modelled and reproduced in the lab. All Formula 1 cars are set up this way,</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">per race. The fuel loaded and suspension and wing settings are tuned in the</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">lab to the track conditions. The engines are tested by computer operated</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">servos while bolted to a frame, not even in the car! The engine and gearbox</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">are ?run around the circuit? for a whole race to see if the gearing is</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">correct and how much fuel is needed.</span><br><br><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Sticking with that analogy, we can test the stoves in the lab using known</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">conditions and requirements of the ?real track?. Each race track has a name</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">like Indianapolis which represents it cycle of distance, speed, elevation</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">changes, acceleration and braking requirements. In vehicle testing each</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">driving cycle is given a name and number and represents a different type of</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">use.</span><br><br><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">There is no point in comparing the performance of an F1 car set up for Monza</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">with a car set up for Monte Carlo. You can do it, but it is pointless. It</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">does not predict performance on any other track and the teams are well aware</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">of this so they don?t do it.</span><br><br><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">You cannot pick one race track and say every car must be compared using that</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">track. Which track? Where is the ?average track?? The reason is obvious: a</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">car can be tuned to the test track, say, a dirt oval in Charlotte, North</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Carolina, and get an optimal result, yet in real life it will be used as a</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">taxi on tar roads in Jakarta. If you want to test cars that will be used as</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">a taxi in Jakarta, you should use a Jakarta driving cycle, and proper tires.</span><br><br><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">The core lessons are:</span><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">- A test protocol can be created that captures the performance no</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">matter what the track or conditions.</span><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">- Sets of conditions ? cooking cycles or ?burn cycles? ? can be</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">described and named or numbered.</span><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">These ?conditions? are not part of the protocol. The protocol is the</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">measurement and assessment tool. The conditions are from the list of</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">available, properly characterised cooking cycles.</span><br><br><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Comparing performance means comparing stoves doing the same thing ? this is</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">agreed. However it should also be agreed that having everything race on a</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">dirt oval in North Carolina is not an appropriate way to characterise the</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">performance of a Jakarta taxi.</span><br><br><br><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Innovation: A motorcycle may far outperform any Jakarta car-taxi, and that</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">is why there are taxi-motorcycles in Jakarta. If the goal is to use less</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">fuel, take a motorcycle. If the goal is to stay dry, taker a car. Customers</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">(and cooks) have different goals. We have to measure appropriately and use</span><br><span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">relevant conditions when stating comparative performance.</span></span></i><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Times"></span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><br></p></div><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><font color="#666666" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><b>Jiddu Broersma</b></font><div><font color="#666666"><b>Technology and Organization Officer</b></font><div><div><br></div><div><font color="#4787ff" style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px"><img height="35" width="118" src="cid:94B010AF-A110-483C-A6DD-E5CC1F6D59DE"></font></div><div><font color="#4787ff" face="Helvetica"><span style="font-size:12px"><br></span></font><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:12px;margin:0px"><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif"><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(230,89,67);font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px">T </span><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666">+91 413 262 34 37</font></span><font color="#e65943" face="FaktProTrial-Thin" style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif"><br></span></font></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(230,89,67);font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px">M </span><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666">+91 894 055 94 30</font></span><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666"><br></font></span></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(230,89,67);font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px">W </span><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><a href="http://www.praktidesign.com" target="_blank"><font color="#666666">www.praktidesign.com</font></a></span><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666"><br></font></span></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(230,89,67);font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px">A </span><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666">Spirit Sense, Old Auroville Rd,</font></span><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666"><br></font></span></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666"> 605 104, Bommiyarpalayam,</font></span></p><p style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="font-family:FaktProTrial-Thin,serif;font-size:13.3333330154419px"><font color="#666666"> Tamil Nadu, India</font></span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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<div><p class="MsoNormal"><font color="#000000" face="Arial"><span style="font-size:12.6666669845581px"><br>Previous messages:</span></font></p></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">Dear Crispin, and Philip,</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">I like what you and Philip are saying and agree. Because the fuel differs at different locations there will need to be separate testing anyways so why not at the same time add Tasks that are common to that local. So we follow my outlined procedure and replace the fuel with local available biomass that works for the stove being tested and replace the water boiling task with a real task that is frequently used. There will likely be several tasks and may even involve several cooking utensils so it could involve many tests especially if they need to be in trilicate. So to make it manageable we need to keep the number of real tasks to one to two that represent typical usage expected and utensil(s) used. The results are still in biomass/task and time/task. Do we need to add taste quality of the end results? I don?t think so as that would be difficult. And we need to establish a well defined end time when the task is completed. That should be easy with any task because all we need is the time from match to when the utensil is up to temperture and add on the time found to be average (as observed in real World) needed to complete the task. We still need to complete the task so to calculate the biomass used.</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"> Is that how you both look at it?</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">I don?t think we can add emissions to the test package when using real food - but not sure.</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">Regards</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">Frank</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">Frank Shields<br></span><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank">franke@cruzio.com</a><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">On Mar 19, 2015, at 4:31 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <</span><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> wrote:</span><br style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> Dear Frank<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> You are getting onto the right path but are defeated by an excess of opportunities.<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> ?FRANK> We are in complete agreement in understanding the variables. But we can?t test all variables and any test we come up with will not be as good as the actual person using it (like everything in the World that?s sold). ?<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> First, you do not have to test with all the variables covered ? it is simply not necessary. Stoves are made for markets. Markets have limitations, constraints. You test for places where you want to sell the product, just like perfume or shoes.<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> ?Field tests may be the way to go but who gets to have their stove tested??<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> You can do a field test in a lab. You can drag the lab to the field. What will you do there which you cannot do in another house, or town, or lab? We have to move away from the idea that a lab test cannot and should not necessarily represent use. Light bulbs are tested in labs, and represent use. I already mentioned cars and engines.<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> ?It should be chosen from a ?most likely to succeed? based on preliminary tests ? like what I have been describing. IMO:<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> No problem. Just test it doing what it is going to be doing. Anything else is a waste of money.<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">><br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> Regards<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> Crispin<br></span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-size:12.8000001907349px">> </span></blockquote></div></div>
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