<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Dean,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Now thats a lot of “cooks’! </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Seems a lot like the groups i experienced with the composting groups made up of scientist, farmers, regulators, composters, sales etc. Nothing ever got accomplished as we would just argue back and force. Key, I’ve concluded, is to have a leader that keeps the group on a path of getting something brought to a conclusion. And that never happened. I hope your group is better. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The report by Baldwin I have downloaded but, for some reason, the .gif files did not come through. They seem important as they contain equations. I’m sure the report must be dated but I will take a look at what I have. Thanks.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""> </div><div class=""><br class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
Frank Shields<br class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a><br class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 3, 2015, at 4:36 PM, Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" class="">deankstill@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Dear Frank,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">No, the stove design information is needed from many equally important sources and hopefully adds up to the evolution of a successful product. In India we had cooks, distributors, manufacturers, funders, engineers, retailers, and community representatives on the stove design committee. The committee designs the product, oversees the development and the long term growth of the project.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Each constituency has different perspectives, as you can imagine. Many types of tests, including sales,etc. are used that give information to the committee. This was outlined by Baldwin in "Biomass Stoves", 1987.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Dean</div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 11:53 AM, Frank Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Dear Dean,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Very interesting. So its the distributer that communicate to you, the designer, what the cook wants? I can understand the limitations on cost and weight, size etc. but to have little contact with the cook on these other decisions I would think that could create some misinformation. Perhaps that is why so many stoves in the past have been turned into flower pots? Distributors playing a big part in these decisions - I never would have guessed. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Well I am just pigeon holed into the testing sectioned. :) </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">re-done…</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="">1) The cook tells the distributor what they want.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="">2) The designer makes the stove do what the distributor wants.</div><div class="">3) The lab helps the designer with gap measurements, suggested materials that will work the best etc.</div><div class="">4) The lab tests all the stoves for the purpose of determining the ones that will work best for the distributor at a site.</div><div class="">5) The finished stove that will do what the distributor requests will come with instructions and, perhaps, a recipe book to be delivered. Then the individual skills of the cooks take over. </div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If the process is such we deal directly with the distributor them it may be necessary to bring the cooks in at the end to verify the distributor got it right. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><br class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div></div></blockquote></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
Frank Shields<br class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a><br class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Jun 3, 2015, at 11:25 AM, Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">deankstill@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Frank,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think that it's very important to add the distributor to the list when thinking about creating a new stove. The distributor, from the very start, helps to define the product and adds a lot of 'reality' to the process. In India, we met with a group of distributors to learn about what they could sell and their inputs were extremely important in the development process. They said that the stove needed to cost less than 5 dollars, that a woman needed to carry two of them a mile to her home, and that 2,000 needed to fit on a truck.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I would get the distributor on the team before doing the other work.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Best,</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Dean</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br class=""><div class="gmail_quote">On Wed, Jun 3, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Frank Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span> wrote:<br class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Dear Crispin and Stovers,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Crispin writes:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Which is the most important, the most significant, the most influential factor creating the final products? The cook. </span></div></div></blockquote><br class=""></div><div class="">The process goes like this:</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">1) The cook tells the stove designer what they want.</div></div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class=""><div class="">2) The designer makes the stove to do what the cook wants.</div><div class="">3) The lab helps the designer with gap measurements, suggested materials that will work the best etc.</div><div class="">4) The lab tests all the stoves for the purpose of determining the ones that will work best for the cooks at a site.</div><div class="">5) The finished stove that will do what the cook requests will come with instructions and, perhaps, a recipe book. Then the individual skills of the cooks take over. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">The only job of the cook is to tell the designer what they want. Then all is left to the designer and the lab (scientist) to make what the cook wants. If the cook likes the stove the process went well. If we bring the cook into the picture after they have told the designer what they want then we are bringing in another -huge- unnecessary variable we must get control of. To get control of it we will need lots of cooks (N values) to use in testing each of the stoves being developed. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If the final product fails or is not widely accepted by the cooks then it means there was a lack of communication between the cook and the designer. Perhaps the cook likes food cooked in a smoky environment. Then the designer must design a stove where that will happen in a safe manner. But if we bring the cooks back into the testing part of stove development we make the process unmanageable and a lot of stove designers will have stoves that will not see the light of day. To be able to keep the cooks out of the process after they have told the designer what they want we need do a lot of work on Step 4 above. And that process starts with understanding the biomass they use as fuel. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
Frank Shields<br class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a><br class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On May 31, 2015, at 12:07 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class=""><div style="font-family:Helvetica;font-size:18px;font-style:normal;font-variant:normal;font-weight:normal;letter-spacing:normal;line-height:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px" class=""><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Dear Stovers and Discussants (if you are not stovers)<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Samer indirectly asks if this: “…</span>centric approach serves the 'poor' or the 'environment'.”<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Consider this: steel sheeting is made without no anticipation of the products that will be formed from it.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">A stove designer forms a product from steel sheets, limited by his or her understanding of what might be possible using it.<span class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Nature produces a variety of fuels with different properties and strengths with no concern as to what possible fire may consume them.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">A cook buys the stove and creates foods unimagined by the stove designer or the steel maker. The cook uses the fuels in ways unseen in natural fires. The cook makes the fire and the stove sing and dance, performing the required actions, producing the right amount of heat, light, and food.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Which is the most important, the most significant, the most influential factor creating the final products? The cook. Without understanding the needs, desires, intentions and skills of the cooks, how is it possible to design a stove or fuel, or combination, that will do what is needed? It is not possible.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Homogenizing the production and broadening the footprint of distribution of improved stoves carries great risks, mostly the risk of failure to adopt. Similarly the introduction of subsidized fuels has multiple intended and unintended consequences.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">With this in mind we should recognize there are two large scale agendas at work.<span class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">The first is those who would replace the stoves with products that are far more efficient and flexible, attractive to own and worth investing in for comfort and pleasure with reduced PM and CO emissions and which make better use of the available energy carriers.<span class=""> </span><u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">The second is that group which seek to remove solid fuels altogether from the kitchen, promoting as they do and will, electricity, LPG, natural gas and light fraction liquid fuels. Their byline is 'to provide clean cooking solutions to those who have traditionally been forced to burn solid fuels'. The implication is that there are no 'clean-burning' solid fuels which rather sets their agenda against that of the first group.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Old-timers may remember the contribution by Liz Bates (former editor of Boiling Point magazine) remarking on the improvement in the lives of cooks in Sudan who received subsidised LPG stoves and fuel. LPG is a wonderful solution to IAQ problems, but does LPG address all the social and material needs of the users of fire?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Let's ask Cecil.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">Regards<br class="">Crispin<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class="">===============<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><span lang="EN-US" class=""> </span></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Dear Jock,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">I found the article very stimulating. Of course, there is much that can be examined in terms of how the global stoves 'industry' is developing. For instance, if one examines the topics discussed at the ETHOS meetings year in and out, there are moments when clear shifts in what is being discussed (and who discusses) occur. As I read it, the broad trend has shifted from concerns of design, implementation, and marketing in context, to global markets (e.g. carbon credits, international testing standards, advocacy).<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">This trajectory will have foreseeable benefits for energy-oriented bilateral agreements, mass manufacturers of stoves, NGOs/corporations that will tap into carbon offsets, and laboratories authorized to certify stoves, etc. Along with this is a strong *claim* that this global market-centric approach serves the 'poor' or the 'environment'.<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">I wish to stay way from simple dichotomous arguments of global/local, top-down/bottom-up, standardized/pluralism, or laboratory/field, but certainly the 'regenerative capitalism' approach you suggest might demand a reconsideration of this trend towards standardization, scale, and donor-driven markets? What alternatives might your approach suggest?<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Your thoughts on this matter are appreciated!<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class=""><u class=""></u> <u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Best,<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div><div style="margin:0cm 0cm 0.0001pt;font-size:11pt;font-family:Calibri,sans-serif" class="">Samer<u class=""></u><u class=""></u></div></div><span 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_______________________________________________<br class="">Stoves mailing list<br class=""><br class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class=""><br class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class=""><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank" class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class=""><br class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class=""><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank" class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></div><br class="">_______________________________________________<br class="">
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