<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Alex,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think the fuel and the environment above the fuel is both of equal importance. So do we change the fuel or the combustion set-up? that is the question. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">A stove system that is able to burn a wide variety of fuels and widely sold may be difficult and/or expensive to make adjustments for a specific fuel. So in this case if it is easy to change the fuel that may be preferred. I think the answer to change the fuel or the stove system depends on the amount of work and expense involved. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Thats the way I look at it today. : )</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
</div>
<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 9, 2015, at 9:23 AM, alex english <<a href="mailto:aenglish444@gmail.com" class="">aenglish444@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><p dir="ltr" class="">Frank,<br class="">
If there are emissions that derive from fuel directly and then escape further 'processing' by flame environments by sneaking by , then they might be called something like primary fuel derived emissions. PFDEs. It is safe to say, I think,that most of these would be transformed into products of complete or incomplete combustion in and around the flame. I may be confused, but this mix would likely have less to do with the fuel than the environment above fuel.<br class="">
Hmm<br class="">
Alex</p>
<div class="gmail_quote">On 2015-09-09 8:55 AM, "Frank Shields" <<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution" class=""><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Dear Paul and Stovers,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">For ‘user-acceptance’ and ‘market driven’ I would think preparing the fuel optimized for your stove that quickly boils water with little dirty emissions is one and the same.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I would think that would be drying and, perhaps as Dean has mentioned, driving off some of the early volatiles that may pass the secondary before complete combustion.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Paul - Do you have information as to the optimum size and shape the biomass should be for your stove? That should be determined.</div><div class="">Then we go to testing the parameters of the biomass like carbon bulk density and carbon particle density along with water soluble sugars and lipids that may contribute to poor emissions. It could be as simple as soaking and draining out constituents to improve the quality as well as heating to drive off the early volatiles. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But first we need to find what it is in the fuel that causes the poor emissions. That could be to take some problem biomass and get a baseline from testing. </div><div class="">Then pre-heat to drive off early volatiles and re-test. Then using another batch soak in hot water, drain, dry and re-test. And finally soak in a solvent, drain, dry and re-test. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Using emissions tests to get ratios of emission components and particles might be enough to determine success. Or add helium surrogate to get absolute concentrations as they are produced might be info that would help. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class=""><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 9, 2015, at 8:20 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class=""><div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Frank and Stovers,<br class="">
<br class="">
My simplistic interest in the "induced drying" of biomass fuels is
related to improving the user-acceptance of the TLUD cookstoves and
the establishment of some fuel marketing chain. The degree of
drying / torrification would be market driven, not related to
emissions or technical characteristics of the resultant fuels. <br class="">
<br class="">
As the degree of drying / heating of the fuels increases, the cost
of that processing will rise. So I favor the minimum treatment
that will benefit the customer and will justify the increase in fuel
price. <br class="">
<br class="">
A favorable situation would be to use essentially waste heat to
prepare the future fuel supplies. Or expend a small amount of fuel
to prepare a much larger amount of fuel that will be sold with
sustainable profitability.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<pre cols="72" class="">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank" class="">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank" class="">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<br class="">
<div class="">On 9/8/2015 3:55 PM, Frank Shields
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
Dear Paul,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Making batches of different degrees of
torrification biofuels is one thing and then testing and
interpreting the results is another. </div>
<div class="">Do we measure success on emissions or time it
takes to boil water? And them we have other variables like
bulk carbon density and particle carbon density. Volatiles and
adding moisture. Size and shape will be important. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So once we figure out a way of making constant
quality material for testing there is still a lot of research
work to do. Agreeing on what we use as a measure of success is
the first.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 6, 2015, at 5:32 AM, Paul Anderson
<<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class=""> Dear
all,<br class="">
<br class="">
While agreeing with Frank and Dean, I suggest that
there are sufficient "degrees of torrification" that
we should subdivide the discussion.<br class="">
<br class="">
1. Wet or green wood High moisture content (MC)<br class="">
2. Dried in 20% MC range<br class="">
3. Dried to 10% MC or less<br class="">
4. Kiln dried (heated to ???? degrees C)<br class="">
5. Super dried (heated to maybe 120 C)<br class="">
6. Toasted (slightly browning) 120 to 180 C ???<br class="">
7. Early torrified 180 - 240 C
??<br class="">
8. Fully torrified 240 - 300 C ??<br class="">
9. Undergoing pyrolysis above 300 C ???<br class="">
10. And then we have different "chars" based on
temperatures during production, 400 C, 450 C, 550 C,
700 C, 900 C<br class="">
<br class="">
LOTS of question marks there. Frank and others can
refine this much better. Issues of MC and
temperatures and "names" (and related to sufficient
time to have the heat impact reach the center of the
pieces of biomass, not just flash heating), and
probably more variables.<br class="">
<br class="">
To just say "torrified" leaves too many uncertainties
and possible mis-understandings / assumptions by the
large number of readers in different cultures and with
different experiences.<br class="">
<br class="">
I can say that TLUD stoves (when properly made and
with consistent MC in the fuels) work very well with
the 3, 4, 5, and 6 (above) fuels. They do not like
much moisture content, and they do not want the fuel
to be already partially charred.<br class="">
<br class="">
Reasonable quality fuel supply is so important for
TLUD acceptance. More work could be done about this.<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul<br class="">
<br class="">
<pre cols="72" class="">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: <a href="tel:%2B1-309-452-7072" value="+13094527072" target="_blank" class="">+1-309-452-7072</a>
Website: <a href="http://www.drtlud.com/" target="_blank" class="">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="">On 9/5/2015 11:45 PM,
Frank Shields wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
Dear Dean, Stovers,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I have not worked with stoves but
working with all types of pellets (paper, manures,
etc.) and good quality wood pellets I find they
burn in pipes very poorly and seem they are really
just good for pellet stoves dropping in one at a
time. </div>
<div class="">I think you may be on to something in
regards to torrifying to some extent before using
to get a cleaner combustion. I see the real
challenge is quality control because torrification
takes place in a very narrow range and it is so
easy to have a ‘run-a-way’ combustion that heats
higher than the setting you want. I was able to
achieve that in my pipes but only after much
practice and s l o w l y raising the
temperature to desired amount. Not sure how this
would be done commercially. It would be a very
interesting project. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We also may be able to get clean
combustion by finding constituents in the pellets
(and all biomass for that matter) that create
these large organic volatile structures that give
problems and eliminate them from the fuel. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 3, 2015, at 12:28 PM,
Dean Still <<a href="mailto:deankstill@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">deankstill@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Hi Frank,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">After limited experience in
Uganda and China my experience is that
it's not easy to make clean burning
recipes for biomass pellets.
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Seems like the torrified
pellets emit less PM but we need to do
more tests.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Best,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Dean</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Sep 3,
2015 at 8:44 AM, Frank Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto" class="">
<div class="">Dear Chispin and
stovers</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Of course no mention
of the quality of the pellets! In
the U.S. The go through standard
testing and results labeled</div>
<div class="">On bags. But pellets
are made of all sorts of materials
and energy values and volatile
profiles. It would seem this
would be part of the discussion. </div>
<div class="">Thanks</div>
<div class="">Frank<br class="">
<br class="">
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
On Sep 3, 2015, at 6:13 AM,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class=""></a><a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<div class=""><p class="MsoNormal">Dear
Friends</p>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div><p class="MsoNormal">There is
a broad move around the
world to create pelleted
fuel from biomass and burn
it in tighter spaces. This
report was noted in the
Alliance for Green Heat
newsletter:</p>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div><p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:blue" class=""><a href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001d7dcszljjgfEKYA31aaHyRsMRRejQSaDUDJHpy5B3lPW1W0QcteHERbDFukIhEc2-_1cKtvym49J_ai7zvt1WWN26UenG3N6joIskOVraQhcc__S5dpEwVlcw8pbpwWuwRufyvZSstnraBJTXAbr2wOPL-tX7Wypj3swduscC5I1Staun8b2olWMeGwuEsLEKsSA0qsYd2J1B5b7fDXOH7vLn_jPI3y12xty5nULquL9LCJu6LE7P-Ysu5qiL45LFwfyKNL4feu5XOzEawUh0a7X5VAZM8fb7F4K1l1kHGeFIFftvkxNTEEi9J_I05V6LKmiIZSk4GOQXJRAMRf5NDba52L-Wn_9jVkbpqju9Kifq8bMZm_xowV5Qn2NerYbUfu00_a4isbrvL9gktLkSQ==&c=WnPhxOQ3V-ic1ZJ3NBDpcipfRPq-UdIrBKPYwMfkxe-_CRS45fkQ4w==&ch=gnDbpciWOWhz6yV0o8Zdcoli15r_rpgR21xk0iBJKKi_KYRnwLVmTw==" target="_blank" class=""><b class="">Updated on
the Mt. Vernon pellet
stove recall</b></a></span></p><p style="margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:0cm;margin-left:22.5pt;margin-bottom:.0001pt" class=""><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f604f" class="">Last month, we
reported on the recall of
2,000 Mt. Vernon E2 pellet
stoves after about 6
experienced explosions
that shattered the glass
in the front door. No
injuries have been
reported. The Alliance
wrote to HHT asking for
clarifications about what
caused the malfunction and
whether the stove would be
3rd party tested again for
safety. </span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""><a href="http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?f=001d7dcszljjgfEKYA31aaHyRsMRRejQSaDUDJHpy5B3lPW1W0QcteHEfKhE4oT8BuuAHDwJ1L0g7GrKo5I0xEbbDvkpCt65Xds638GUTKpc9WxdvAozGBIprVOl7vL1wQKB10dTQFUofpAQnr3z9i2zwxCfiQA3rCg4PVvKxSMWgMWDhYiC_fJ7rGJlBpUwsdpb9A-KCa9c_WZg3sRbG1GpSOEsBvotEVw3FLKELU68l1aktAt4KqIrr-AbESuj8iSP6u9wdRQU3L5aMshSI5ocFejIUjrSB94PP9Q2h_zrmWcq3brFPbj1VqWZSiFfmDp50WpCw2b2SOvJ-9NqzbOgn8sgdzIHO2tNWqczgkuFI6d7bzwPt4D_g==&c=WnPhxOQ3V-ic1ZJ3NBDpcipfRPq-UdIrBKPYwMfkxe-_CRS45fkQ4w==&ch=gnDbpciWOWhz6yV0o8Zdcoli15r_rpgR21xk0iBJKKi_KYRnwLVmTw==" target="_blank" class=""><b class=""><span style="color:#4f604f" class="">Click here</span></b></a></span><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f604f" class=""> for a copy of
the HHT response.</span><span style="font-size:8pt;font-family:Verdana,sans-serif" class=""></span></p>
<div class=""><span style="font-size:8.0pt;font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif;color:#4f604f" class=""> </span><br class="">
</div><p class="MsoNormal">The drive
to create better combustion
often means having a staged
gasification-then-burning
type of design. That may be
a source of problems.</p>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div><p class="MsoNormal">I know of
at least one instance of a
very modern TLUD coal stove
explosion in Ulaanbaatar
when the operator refuelled
it with a significant amount
of lignite (high volatiles)
while it was already very
hot. This generated a huge
amount of combustible gas
while simultaneously
extinguishing the gas
flame. Eventually it heated
up to the point that the gas
ignited and it blew flaming
fuel out of the top of the
stove, around the room. A
public education campaign
tried to prevent exactly
this sort of mis-operation.</p>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div><p class="MsoNormal">Regards</p><p class="MsoNormal">Crispin</p>
<div class=""> <br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
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<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
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<div dir="ltr" class="">Executive
Director
<div class="">Aprovecho Research
Center</div>
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for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
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Stoves mailing list<br class="">
<br class="">
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class="">
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<br class="">
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class="">
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_______________________________________________<br class="">Stoves mailing list<br class=""><br class="">to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br class=""><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br class=""><br class="">to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br class="">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<br class=""><br class="">for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br class="">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<br class=""><br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></div></body></html>