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Dear Dana,<br>
<br>
Thank you for the information. Please put all of us into contact
with <br>
<pre wrap="">Chen Xiaofu of
CAREI who collaborated on the stove competition.
You might also forward to him the previous messages here and below. Thanks for that assistance.
Basically, documentation about the pre-1985 early use of (and origins of) micro-gasification of any type would be of interest, and especially regarding what is today known as TLUD gasifiers. Please note that "micro-gasification" is not a quantified term, but generally means the smallish devices for residential cooking.
Large gasification of different types has been done for maybe 200 years, maybe longer. Long ago cities had pipes of coal gas into homes for lighting and cooking. That is not what we are discussing.
Maybe now, in 2015, there can be some clarification on this topic of long-time existence of micro-gasifiers for residential cooking. I hope that documentation can be provided.
Such documentation will raise the question of where were these technologies when the big stove research project were done in the 1970s and 1980s, including in China? Certainly nobody had reasons to hide them or prevent them from such stoves being produced.
In case you have not seen this, micro-gasifiers have received some significant recognition (ESMAP + GACC 2015 publication, page 90).
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/21878/96499.pdf">https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/21878/96499.pdf</a>
<blockquote type="cite"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"><span style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
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EN-US;mso-bidi-language:AR-SA"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>“<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:
normal">The most exciting technology trend in the biomass cookstove sector is
the growing range of forced draft and natural draft gasifier stoves</b>.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>These stoves have shown the greatest
potential to improve health and environmental outcomes, at least under
laboratory conditions.”<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>(ESMAP 2015, p. 90).<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span></span></span><meta name="ProgId" content="Word.Document"><meta name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><meta name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 12"><link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CUsers%5CPSA%5CAppData%5CLocal%5CTemp%5Cmsohtmlclip1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
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I and the whole world will gladly give recognition when documentation is provided.
Paul
</pre>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre><div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/14/2015 5:06 PM, Dana Charron wrote:
</div><blockquote cite="mid:006001d0ef39$9d0b6b50$d72241f0$@berkeleyair.com" type="cite"><pre wrap="">Hi Paul,
Sorry I don't have time to get on the listserv but I will answer the
question about the competition. I suggest that you talk to Chen Xiaofu of
CAREI who collaborated on the stove competition that you reference. At the
time, he told me that the stoves in the competition were a small subset of
the stoves on the market. The difference was that most of the gasifier
stoves were of a larger scale and used primarily for heating or heating
water on a larger scale, whereas our competition aimed to highlight the
newer application of the technology for single household cooking. Chen has
been in this sector in China for decades and he'll be able to give you lots
of information in English. If you don't know him already, I'd be happy to
make an email introduction.
Hope this helps, and hi to you too, Dean!
--Dana
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Anderson [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu</a>]
Sent: Sunday, September 13, 2015 10:06 AM
To: Discussion of biomass cooking stoves <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org></a>;
Dana Charron <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:dcharron@berkeleyair.com"><dcharron@berkeleyair.com></a>; biochar-stoves - Specific Listserv
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:biocharstoves-7y82a@wiggiomail.com"><biocharstoves-7y82a@wiggiomail.com></a>
Subject: History of clean Chinese stove development. Re: [Stoves] Rights
about stove designs Re: [biochar-stoves]
Dean and all, (To post at <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a> , but
all replies via the Listservs, please.)
It is remarkable how the documentation of the development of
clean-burning stoves in China is so scarce. If you can influence
anyone to actually substantiate what you have written in your email below
and put it into English, that would be a great service.
Instead, the evidence that comes from China today is that the air pollution
from the coal burning stoves is horrible and that they are
wanting solutions. And I doubt that the principles of TLUD-type
combustion are being used with those hundreds of millions of stoves that you
mention.
Crispin reports great success of lower emissions with gasifier-type (whether
TLUD or not is not an issue) stoves (for cooking and for
heating) burning low-grade coal in Mongolia. That is documented evidence,
and the concepts and designs did not come from copying the Chinese coal
burning stoves.
Less than 10 years ago (2007) there was a competition of clean
cookstoves in China. Dana Charron and Berkeley folks helped run it.
Many candidates. Of the seven or eight finalists, only one (Daxu) was a
legitimate TLUD gasifier, and it won first place. So, I see no support
for your statement:
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">the modern Chinese stove community has specialized in TLUD type
natural draft stoves for more than 20 years.
</pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">Dean, you and anyone else are invited to present documentation about
stove progress in China or in any country. But simple statements
without backup documentation are not sufficient, and should not be coming
from a person who is continually invited to represent the
informal Stover Community to administrators and sources of funding.
Your comments below only contribute to the myths that plague our work and
our progress.
Paul
Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a>
On 9/13/2015 12:45 AM, Dean Still wrote:
</pre><blockquote type="cite"><pre wrap="">Hi Paul and Ron,
Let's not forget that the modern Chinese stove community has
specialized in TLUD type natural draft stoves for more than 20 years.
It's just as likely that the stove you ordered was designed in China
and is now being sold worldwide. I think it is also sold by SilverFire?
Hundreds of millions of natural draft coal burning TLUD type stoves
are sold in China. Many manufacturers make biomass fueled forced air
stoves like the Tom Reed stove but they are larger to match the big woks.
It would be very interesting to learn about the Chinese history of top
feed cylindrical combustion chamber with primary and secondary air
stoves. The Chinese batch fed primary/secondary air stoves could be
hundreds of years old. I don't know.
Best,
Dean
</pre></blockquote><pre wrap="">
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