<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;"><div>Paul cc list</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Well - I have to disagree. </div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Our EPA has declared that CO2 from all fossil fuels is a pollutant. That was held up in the US Supreme Court. Most of the world agrees that fossil fuel CO2 needs to be eliminated and that is what COP21 in Paris is about.</div><div><br></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span> Per the latest IPCC documents, we have to get off all fossil fuels. And so I hope that GACC will stay away from endorsing any coal, oil, or natural gas consuming stove. Those fuels don’t need the help of this list or GACC. Biomass can supply all those forms of energy anyway - in most cases cheaper where biomass cook stoves are now in use.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote type="cite" style="widows: 1;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Additionally the guiding words for this list emphasize it is for biomass. [“<span style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); widows: 1;"><font face="Verdana, Tahoma, DejaVu Sans, sans-serif"><span style="font-size: 12px; line-height: 18px;"><u><b>Our site is dedicated to helping people develop better stoves for cooking with biomass fuels in developing regions.”]</b></u></span></font></span></blockquote></div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><br><div><div>On Sep 15, 2015, at 6:01 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Dear ALL, (post to<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a href="http://drtlud.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">drtlud.com</a><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>website)<br><br>EVERYONE should carefully read Crispin's message (below). I cannot substantiate his comments about specific stoves, and we will hope that Prof. Lloyd will send references about the Scotch Method.<br><br>Otherwise, I am IN TOTAL AGREEMENT WITH CRISPIN. Read each line, soak it in. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>Concerning the stoves in Mongolia, of course I am delighted that:<blockquote type="cite"><span>all but one of them is a TLUD.</span></blockquote>But that is not the issue. The issue is that low grade coal is able to be burned cleanly in sufficiently inexpensive cookstoves for the climate and culture. Note that those Mongolian stoves have an important function for household heating, helping to justify the higher costs of stoves with heavier metal. The probable financial assistance ("subsidy" to the purchaser) can be justified in the clean air accomplishments that benefit not just the impoverished people, but also all of the wealthy who want clean air both locally and internationally (global air quality issues are important). <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>The Mongolian stoves are not being proclaimed as being for tropical areas where the stove constructions and costs need to be different.<br><br>About coal as fuel for stoves and home heaters: Coal needs to be included in the fuels for cookstoves WHEN COUPLED WITH CLEAN-BURNING STOVES. When that is the case, the only major "negative characteristic" is that coal is a fossil fuel (being carbon positive to the atmosphere). Well, that also applies to LPG !!!! which is a very highly regarded fuel for clean cookstoves. Double standards are not acceptable. This issue needs to be addressed!!! <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><br><br>And it should be addressed at least by the time of the GACC Forum in Ghana on 10 -13 Nov where a resolution or statement or declaration (or whatever groups do) could be officially made about the acceptability of coal as a cookstove fuel WHEN USED IN CLEAN-BURNING STOVES.<br><br>None of the above is against fan-assisted stoves or natural draft TLUDs. Instead, the effort is to get coal and the<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><b><u>appropriate</u></b>coal-burning stoves added to the list of contributing solutions to the world's cookstove problems.<br><br>Comments please to the Stoves Listserv.<br><br>Paul<br><br><pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">www.drtlud.com</a></pre><div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 9/14/2015 10:45 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<br></div><blockquote cite="mid:COL401-EAS341D5127111A321E8227536B15C0@phx.gbl" type="cite"><div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;"><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Dear Paul<o:p></o:p></span></p><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height: normal; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>That linked document has this to say: “</span><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: windowtext;">For biomass cooking, pending further evidence from the field, significant health benefits are possible only with the highest quality fan gasifier stoves…”<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height: normal; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: windowtext;"> </span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height: normal; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>I don’t know who invented that idea – it is traceable to Kirk Smith (Bangkok, Nov 2010) but I think the concept that ‘the only really clean stoves are fan assisted gasifiers’ is older than that. Maybe it emerged from Berkeley. It doesn’t matter.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; line-height: normal; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 11.5pt; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: windowtext;"> </span></div><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>It is not true.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Is that clear enough? How else can we say it? It is not true that the only really clean stoves are fan assisted gasifiers. This caution is also contained in the statement, “It is not true that the only really clean stoves are fan assisted or ND TLUD pyrolysers.”<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>The most expensive externally funded improved stove replacement programme in the world is the Mongolian urban ger stove programme, funded by the US-based MCC through the MCA-Mongolia account, the WB, the Asian Development Bank and the City Government of Ulaanbaatar. There are a large number of additional players including Xaas Bank, carbon trading funders and national Ministries.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Assiduously examining a large number of stove options, and creating an advanced testing laboratory on a shoe string, incorporating a test method that predicts reasonably the field performance (field testing proved to be nearly impossible, even for LBNL, which tried hard) a set of stoves that are well over 90% cleaner than the baseline stoves (several >98%) was selected for distribution. Not one of them is fan assisted and not one of them is a pyrolyser save in the sense that all coal stoves are pyrolysers. Certainly it is true that all solid fuel stoves are gasifiers. Quibbling will not change the fact flames burn gas.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>A lot of people worked hard to bring this together and pull off the biggest clean-up of a major city’s air ever accomplished without changing the fuel – because the fuel was<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>never<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>the problem. It is an excellent fuel and burns so cleanly the stove comparison chart would have to create two more tiers to fairly accommodate them. The fact that this achievement is still ignored continues to stain the ICS community. The reason for this is obvious: coal is supposed to be the demon fuel that cannot be burned cleanly. Millions of people are going to burn coal for a long time to come – deal with it. Burn it properly.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>These super-clean stoves originate from Turkey, China and Mongolia. The producers pay no attention to anything going on in the “TLUD world”, even though all but one of them is a TLUD. It is unfortunate that the fictions that “solid fuels cannot be burned cleanly”, and “only fans work”, and “coal cannot be burned cleanly” because it contains “pollution” are repeated by those who should know their field better. Making these statements makes the speaker look like a disconnected amateur. Modern Austrian fireplaces are cleaner than most very improved stoves and they are made of brick for heaven’s sake. They are not even ‘stoves’. The Russians are building ‘bell’ heat exchangers that are brilliant.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>The IC stove community has to start living in the present.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Here is a test of the laboratory air at the SEET lab and the emissions of a cross draft stove (currently reproduced exactly by a small local welding shop in Ulaanbaatar):<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>[[ Image deleted from copy of message.]]<br></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>These two Dusttraks were compared with each other before this photo was taken. They agreed within 2 micrograms at a concentration of more than 400. The one on the left is brand new, brought by LBNL (Berkeley) measuring the ambient air (195<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><span>µ</span><span>g/m<sup>3</sup>) and the one on the right is from SEET Lab sampling directly from the chimney (0</span><span><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>µ</span><span>g/m<sup>3</sup>).<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><i>That<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>is a clean stove.<i><span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>The dirty air going into the stove is being cleaned by the fire, while burning wet lignite: 50% volatiles (AD) and 26% moisture.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>It is high time to admit that coal and indeed wood can be burned by a number of methods extremely well. No fuel has a monopoly on cleanliness. The concept of a ‘dirty fuel’ is archaic and was never correct. It was always a misconception.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Equally incorrect is the idea that ethanol, for example, is a ‘clean fuel’. I have just seen a test of an ethanol stove that doesn’t come close to meeting the South African kerosene stove test requirement at high power or low. This is quite common. Most ethanol stoves are not very clean when it comes to CO. They literally can’t hold a candle to the stoves sold in Ulaanbaatar that burn lignite. Why? Bad combustion.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>What’s next? China of course. And India. Why should their stove programmes be held back by errant preconceptions originating within the ‘clean air’ and ‘clean stove’ communities? If the clean air and clean stove communities can’t keep up with reality, others will step in to lead. Projects are not going to be willing to spend $50m on junk science claims. Or $500m.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Paul, you are correct to ask for references. The method of burning coal “TLUD” is called the ‘Scotch Method’ in South African and goes back over a century. I believe Prof Lloyd has some sources for that because he was thinking about the problem in the mid-70’s.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Regards to all<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span>Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 8pt; line-height: 15px; font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"><span> </span></p><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">In case you have not seen this, micro-gasifiers have received some significant recognition (ESMAP + GACC 2015 publication, page 90). <o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/21878/96499.pdf" style="color: purple; text-decoration: underline;">https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/bitstream/handle/10986/21878/96499.pdf</a> <o:p></o:p></pre><blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;"><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; line-height: 13px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;"> “<b>The most exciting technology trend in the biomass cookstove sector is<o:p></o:p></b></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; line-height: 13px;"><b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">the growing range of forced draft and natural draft gasifier stoves</span></b><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">. These stoves have shown the greatest<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New'; line-height: 13px;"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; line-height: 15px; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">potential to improve health and environmental outcomes, at least under<o:p></o:p></span></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif;">laboratory conditions.” (ESMAP 2015, p. 90). </span><o:p></o:p></pre><pre style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';"><o:p> </o:p></pre></blockquote></div><br><fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset><br><pre wrap="" style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 10pt; font-family: 'Courier New';">_______________________________________________
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