<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Alex, Stovers, <div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I think what happens (and I hope I will be corrected if wrong) is that during ‘cracking’ heat is required. Only when broken to structures that can be oxidized will heat be released. So large volatile structures passing the secondary will take heat away from the flame. But countered with releasing more heat from oxidized materials. Not sure how important that is if that is how it works. So its a fine line we walk when cracking and oxidizing within the combustion chamber. I think measuring CO in the combustion chamber and CO and CO2 in the stack in a manner that is normalized (helium surrogate) may give us some ratios to work - except for the sneakage missing things up! Using pure CO can help determine changes that take place in a constant system. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div apple-content-edited="true" class="">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class=""><a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div><div class=""><br class=""></div></div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 20, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Frank Shields <<a href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1" http-equiv="Content-Type" class="">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Alex,<br class="">
<br class="">
True that could happen with too much primary air but is that what we
want to happen? We want heat to 'crack?' the complex structures to
smaller more easily oxidized ones but we do not want them to go all
the way to CO2 and water releasing its heat before it reaches the
frying pan. So the goal as I understand it is to use the heat from
the solid-C > CO and only as much heat from the CO > CO2 to be
able to crack the hydrocarbons into easily oxidizable structures
and the rest of the CO aiding the secondary. <br class="">
<br class="">
I think added oxygen from primaryy will first change the easily CO
> CO2 and only after this has been completed will the cracked
hydrocarbons be oxidized. But its only a guess until its tested. <br class="">
<br class="">
Regards<br class="">
<br class="">
Frank<br class="">
<br class="">
Frank Shields<br class="">
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
On 9/20/2015 2:35 PM, alex english wrote:
<blockquote cite="mid:CA+6hwOqtzJ-NfgLu=UYLqwyMsMTnix0x+JjVeP6uvAe-t__zuw@mail.gmail.com" type="cite" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Frank,
<div class="">Some of the volatile hydrocarbons are burning in the
primary too.</div>
<div class="">Alex</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Frank
Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">Alex, Stovers,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Definitely more complex than I imagined. Sneakage - I
never would have guessed. Hard to correct for that one. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">There are three sources of heat: 1) large volatile
organics 2) Solid-C > CO and 3) CO > CO2. </div>
<div class=""> </div>
<div class="">1) The first one is only for the secondary</div>
<div class="">2) Second only for the combustion chamber</div>
<div class="">3) Third can be for the combustion chamber or the
secondary</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So ignoring sneakage (Ha) it is only (3) that we have
any control over. We add more primary air to add heat to
the combustion chamber or less air to send it up to add
heat to the secondary. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We can measure the heat energy from all three using
the pipe. And I think it might be these three values
that we can use to categorize different biomass fuels
(perhaps coals?). It could be that simple. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Then to find the right architecture for a combustion
chamber that reduces sneakage and cleanly burns.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank </div>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</font></span>
<div class=""><span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888" class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing: normal; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; word-spacing: 0px; word-wrap: break-word;" class="">
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
</font></span>
<div class="">
<div class="h5">
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Sep 20, 2015, at 11:41 AM, alex english
<<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:aenglish444@gmail.com" target="_blank" class="">aenglish444@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Frank,
<div class="">I have measured between the primary and
secondary zones of a TLUD. CO and CO2 were
in the 8% to 11% range on a dry volume
basis. Oxygen would be near zero. At the
same time the stack concentration can be;
CO near zero, CO2 ~ 12%, Oxygen ~8%.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">It is difficult to predict what would
happen with CO injected at different
levels. A secondary burner may be
operating near the edge of its operational
'sweet spot' and any change will result in
an increase in stack CO. It could also be
that it is operating with to much excess
air,( excess excess air if you will), and
the added CO would be quickly oxidized,
reducing excess air and increasing the
hot mix temperature, resulting in lower
stack CO. In this scenario adding CO helps
to better burn the CO that is already
present.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Alex</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Sep 20,
2015 at 1:22 PM, Frank Shields <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a>></span>
wrote:<br class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px
#ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div style="word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">Greetings Stovers,</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The question I have is does the
CO measured in the stack after the
secondary combustion come from
Primary Combustion (PC) or Secondary
Combustion (SC)? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">As I understand how it works{</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">We know the primary combustion
will produce large organic pyrolysis
gases until the internal oxygen and
hydrogen is consumed then will
switch to releasing heat with added
outside oxygen as the solid goes to
CO and CO to CO2.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So is the CO found in the stack
from CO produced in the PC making
its way through the SC or from
incomplete combustion of large
organic structures not properly
prepared for the SC? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">If we were to set up a stove
operating and measure the CO in the
stack, then introduce CO along with
the primary air from a compressed CO
tank - would we see an increase in
CO in the stack? or is it easily and
completely combusted in the
secondary? If not seeing any and we
kept increasing the CO being
delivered how high can we go before
seeing ‘break through’? And then if
we increased primary air will the CO
delivered combust in the combustion
chamber increase CO2 in the stack
and increase combustion chamber
temperature?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Im thinking the CO produced in
the PC is very important in
controlling combustion chamber
temperatures that prepare the
complex pyrolysis gases for the SC. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Im sure this simple experiment
must have been done somewhere and
wondering what the results are. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<span class=""><font color="#888888" class="">
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<div style="letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;word-wrap:break-word" class="">
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class=""><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank" class="">franke@cruzio.com</a></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
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