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(y) oh, they're only poison if they actually poison someone, says
ye!?! it's all a question of the internalized and localized
concentration? in what way is this like thinking? thank you Philip!<br>
<br>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 26.09.2015 12:36, Philip Lloyd
wrote:<br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">I
just love “possibly poisonous particles.” Alliteration’s
artful aid strikes again! But try looking at things from the
other end. People have been burning biomass for thousands
of years. There are three possible reasons for its
continued use:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
have evolved resistance to the PPP<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">We
die before the awful effects of PPP become apparent; or<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoListParagraph"
style="text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><span
style="mso-list:Ignore">3.<span style="font:7.0pt
"Times New Roman""> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
effects of PPP were not awful to start with.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Take
your pick – whichever you choose, the end result is the
same. First identify the real problem, then real debate is
possible. Putative problems proliferate, and produce poor
productivity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Philip
Lloyd<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div style="border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF
1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">From:</span></b><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext">
Stoves [<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Ronald Hongsermeier<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 26 September 2015 12:01<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] Coal and biochar stoves<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Hi all, don't
want to complicate things unnecessarily, but isn't it
axiomatic that even the same species of biomass grow in a
radically different nutrient environment (soil) will have
different levels of possible poisonous particles in the
burnoff?<br>
<br>
regards,<br>
Ron von Oktoberfestsafedistance<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On 24.09.2015 21:05, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Dear
Todd<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">You
raise an interesting point and it should not be missed. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Wood
and coal both contain mercury, sulphur, lead, uranium
and other heavy metals, and the fire emissions contain
fly ash</span><span
style="font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"></span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">,</span><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">
polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons, numerous chemical
species, and particles of incomplete combustion
including condensed volatiles. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">It
would not be fair to ignore the emissions from any fire.
Also it is unfair to require testing on coal fires and
not wood fires. The inherent emissions are different for
different fuels. Categories of fuel include: <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Wood<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Other
biomass<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Peat
lignite<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Coal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Semi-coked
fuels<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Coke<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Charcoal<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Densified
biomass<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Torrefied
wood<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">The
toxic contents occur in different concentrations and
combinations. It is reasonable to assess fuels
individually. There are toxic woods and toxic coals.
There are toxic emissions. Toxicity is strongly
dependent on concentration. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">When
you consider what and how well something needs to be
burned one rule should apply to all. No pet fuels. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Regards <o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="background:white"><span
style="font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D">Crispin
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Stovers: <o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">I'm confused. Coal & Biomass
stove disconnect? No one is discussing the
dissimilarities.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Is this a logical? The discussion
of coal combustion must address Mercury, fly ash and
other heavy metal pollution, not just run of the mill
biomass combustion pollution. Water and air pollution
contamination are other major health concerns. Mining
and transporting coal has wide documented health
impacts.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Don't we have to ask although coal
maybe combusted cleanly with very well designed stove
compared to an inefficient coal stoves, advanced
scrubber technologies are not affordable or practical
for household stoves.<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Do any of the biomass stove testing
entities have or can afford coal emission testing
technologies? Currently I am not aware of any biomass
testing organization that has the sophistication or
equipment for heavy metal emission testing, or am I
incorrect?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Regards,<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">Todd Albi, SilverFire, <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><o:p> </o:p></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 7:41 PM,
Frank Shields <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank">franke@cruzio.com</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt">Dear
Stovers,<br>
<br>
Coal and biomass stoves:<br>
<br>
Similarities:<br>
<br>
1) They both have the same goal of producing a clean
secondary flame used to boil water.<br>
2) They both have achieved this goal (Crispin and Dean
- and others)<br>
3) They both have the three types of energy: a)
pyrolysis gases b) solid-C > CO and c) CO > CO2<br>
4) During optimization the three energy types are
adjusted via primary air to produce the best ratio.<br>
<br>
Because they are so much the same and manipulated the
same to optimize conditions for the secondary I
believe the coal stoves should be included in our
discussions. They start with different ratios of the
three energy types and it would be very interesting
(to me) to know what the ratio is just before entering
the secondary flame when burning clean. I wonder if
they are the same or if we can learn ranges and limits
to the ratios we need to achieve. As we get better
testing techniques to study what goes on in combustion
chambers it would aid us to include the info from coal
stoves.<br>
<br>
Real problem is Stove Labs need more money! That to
purchase testing equipment for their research, added
personal and they should be testing more stoves.<br>
<br>
as I see it…<br>
<br>
Regards<br>
<br>
Frank<br>
<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</a><br>
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