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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=NL-BE link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear Kirk<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Something is wrong in your concept op pressure .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> One : you measure pressure- difference in and outside the stove ,an OPEN STOVE vessel!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Only in a closed vessel BOM- combuster you get a real pressure due solid/gas volume-expansion, versus container volume ;mind 12gram carbon gives 22,4 Liter =44gram CO2 or 22,4 liter CO=28gram !!! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Depends the air you give it . Gas from pyrolyse is different .CO +H2+CO2 +organic gas methanol aceton acetic acid ao .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Then you have GAS expansion to law PV/T=pv/t versus absolute temperature - 273°C in the calculation<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>In and out the stove you get the ARCHIMES law too ! Compare floating in water-pressure up ,depends displaced water or air with its density difference . Air MOL equivalent =27 CO=28 CO2=44 H2=2<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> A high chimney as mine is 8 meter ,it SUCKS till 3 mm water column PRESSURE-DIFFERENCE as the 10 Kw stove make the noise as a wolf …..!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Your idea to measure gas escape surface- pressure must be done about ,with a cup shaped pressure sensor of 1cm² and 1mm long,, pressed on a flat peace of gas- steaming wood…of 450 °C.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But it is non-sense to try it!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You need the “FLOW” in a stove as most important related to stove dimensions .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Mind :Flow is related to your unmeasurable pressure difference .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Flow is measured with a PITOT tube of 1-2 mm and 20 cm long .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You can make a flow indicator by an extra vessel around the stove with an unic total air input ,with a square tube input with a balancing hanging cat-door 1x5 cm ,metallised MILAR=polyester of microns thick.(Or thinnest Alu foil ) To get minimum air resistance! <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You measure the movement by an oblique laser rayon .. Movement multiplied by reflection longer distance ! For a TLUD stove without a fan..<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> With fan : a 15 cm PC fan you cannot use with a cone 12 to 3 cm ! All FLOW RETURNS due FLOW CONE RESISTANCE !!!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You need PRESSURE to OVERCOME the fuel compaction resistance !<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> An inversely used vacuum cleaner motor at 1/10 of its voltage and power is best !! Regulate FLOW, is airspeed to the best BURNSPEED but …..! (15-30 volt for 230V AC motor )<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Give the gasses “REACTION TIME “ !!!<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And mind pyrolyse /combustion needs 1versus 9 air quantity !<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Succes !<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>P.F.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Van:</span></b><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org] <b>Namens </b>kgharris<br><b>Verzonden:</b> vrijdag 18 september 2015 4:21<br><br><b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Stoves] Strata combustor general principles<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Frans,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>It is exciting to have you bring up these concerns. There is a question I have had for a long time, and your contribution reminds me about it. It has to do with the pressures within the stove. Perhaps you and the list can help answer this question.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>First to address your concerns. There is a sweet spot as to how much blockage the stove can manage. It lies between to much, which blocks the flow and creates the attenuation you describe, and to little so that the combustor doesn't work. I did not know that the venturi created a back pressure, I assumed that the back pressure was created by the obstruction of the tubes and fan. I found the sweet spot by emperical experimentation. I now know that this balance includes back pressure from the Venturi, if I understand you correctly. So the equation now includes the resistance of three things: tubes, stationary fan blade, and Venturi back pressure. I included your concern into the design without my even knowing it. Its all a balance. Thank you for your input, it is very good to help me understand more about the stove. The combustor has been tested at Aprovecho and does work, so the idea is good.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>The question I have had for so long is this: When the wood gas emerges from the wood what is its pressure and how long does it take for the wood gas to drop to near atmospheric pressure? When I measured the pressure in a stove with a manometer which measured down to 1/100th of an inch of water column, it measured at atmospheric pressure throughout the stove. The water column did not move at all (I understand from Crispin that I must measure down to 1/1000th of an inch to find pressure differences). Since the water column did not move when I measured the pressure at the pyrolytic front, that implies that the wood gas either reaches atmospheric pressure quickly or comes out of the wood at near atmospheric pressure. Whatever the case, the wood gas comes out of the wood with enough force to push the atmosphere, which weighs twice as much as the wood gas, out of the stove. That is a considerable amount of force. I wonder how much pressure pyrolysis could build up in a confined container? A lot I would guess, enough to cause an explosion. Is the pressure of the emerging wood gas dependent on the pressure of the gas it emerges into?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Respectfully,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Kirk</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:peetersfrans@telenet.be" title="peetersfrans@telenet.be">Frans Peeters</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Thursday, September 17, 2015 3:06 PM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] Strata combustor general principles<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Dear,Kirk<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> You don’t see :it is not a closed compressed system !<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But any reaction vessel (V1 ) with a venturi attenuation at the output gives a back reaction in all directions ,so flow attenuation under the grate air input .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>By over total power the air input BECOMES SMOKE OUTPUT TOO .! So invers to your idea ;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>A V1 rocket has an input COMPRESSOR powered by the traveling speed plus a constant fuel input so a nice VENTURY output .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>1and 2 you don’t have it in a stove of half info .<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> Yours<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Rocket scientist<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>Van:</span></b><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stoves [</span><span lang=NL style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'><a href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"><span lang=EN-US>mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a></span><span lang=EN-US style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>] <b>Namens </b>kgharris<br><b>Verzonden:</b> donderdag 17 september 2015 4:58<br><b>Aan:</b> Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<br><b>Onderwerp:</b> Re: [Stoves] Strata combustor general principles<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><span lang=EN-US><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dr. Boll and Crispin,</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Thank you for your well considered responses. I especially like the idea of balancing the reactor fuel chamber volumn with the combustor size. I will keep this in mind as I progress, and seek that balance. </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>I don't quite understand Crispins flame tube. The stove appears to be loaded with charcoal, so there should not be any smoke. If the clay is insulating clay than the tube would provide a hot environment for the CO to burn, if there is a source of secondary air. If the stove burns wood, by what principles does the tube work? Is air injected inside the tube? This would make use of the Venturi effect like Roberto's stove. The flame gasses accellerating into the tube would drop in pressure and the pressure difference would help the atmosphere push secondary air into the flame to equalize the pressure, providing good mixing. This seems to me like it might work well if that is how it works. Is there something else that I don't see?</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Kirk </span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> <o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid black 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt'><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>----- Original Message ----- <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal style='background:#E4E4E4'><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:boll.bn@t-online.de" title="boll.bn@t-online.de">Boll, Martin Dr.</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>To:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Sent:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Wednesday, September 16, 2015 6:35 AM<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Subject:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> Re: [Stoves] Strata combustor general principles<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal>Kirk, <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>first of all, your stoves and thoughts about TLUD's are very interesting. And in my opinion<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> the venturi-concept, you are talking about, -how ever managed- will be generally the next important step for better burning; - and for less blacked pots!!! <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>A presumption I made a year or two ago: <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>The (nominal-) power rate of a good working stove has a more or less narrow relation to the grate-surface, and/or the burning-chamber-volume.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal> I calculated the given numbers of some different commercial stoves. My calculations confirmed my guess.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I dont remember the numbers, but it is easy to calculate the numbers out of available commercial data.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Additional I remind to Crispin's postings, some time ago:<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>He reported, that he made the burning-chamber of some coal stoves in Ulanbaator smaller, by just filling some space of the burning-chamber-space with bricks. And some surface of the grate. In combination with special incending-procedure, that gave better burning; even by transforming the may of stoves there, there was an enormous reduction (more than 90%) of air-pollution. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>So I suspect, if you would use the right-balanced amount of burning-chamber-volume, you could get a step forward. The volume within the venturi-riser-burner-tube should be included in the calculation; but in the tube there will be, -hopefully- a burning some similar to a LPG or NG flame, which will afford less volume. <o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>You could take the power-rate which you achieve with low emission, for extrapolating the stove dimensions for your desired 5 kW output.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Regards<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Martin<o:p></o:p></p></div></blockquote><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span lang=EN-US>_______________________________________________<br>Stoves mailing list<br><br>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br></span><a href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"><span lang=EN-US>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span lang=EN-US><br><br>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br></span><a href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"><span lang=EN-US>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span lang=EN-US><br><br>for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:<br></span><a href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"><span lang=EN-US>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</span></a><span lang=EN-US><o:p></o:p></span></p><div class=MsoNormal align=center style='text-align:center'><hr size=2 width="100%" align=center></div><p><span lang=EN-US>No virus found in this message.<br>Checked by AVG - </span><a href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>Version: 2015.0.6140 / Virus Database: 4419/10657 - Release Date: 09/17/15<o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></body></html>