<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Crispin,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">First we lay down the ground rules. Our clients are the poorest of the poor. Poor quality and hard to get fuel. They cook with a minimum of tasks required. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">If this is a reasonable client description? I go forward with we need to 1) complete a task 2) using the minimum quantity of fuel as our goal. So yes in this case thermal efficiency is relative to the amount of fuel used that was provided to the lab. And where fuel is in very short supply (as in this example) thermal efficiency value is very important when picking the stove that uses less of the type of fuel received to do the same task.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Remember: This is a test method that is run in labs all over the World and results used in comparison. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I am sure there are salesmen, manufacturing issues, marketing, cost, shape and color that are all involved in who get the sale. But lucky for us scientist we can ignore all that and just provide a list of stoves with test results describing what they should expect if purchasing. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">FIELD Fuel consumption cannot be determined in the lab. If the stove takes in sticks 3c m diameter and 10 cm long the rest of the biomass from the tree is wasted. And we need to get Box 1 through Box 6 taken care of and under control if we are ever going to have labs around the World testing stoves. That so they can be tested at a reasonable cost and we can get lots of stoves in the list to compare. (our goal)</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">That is why there needs to be a collection and inventory of possible biofuels from an area. Then a request for stoves using the available fuels (already in a list). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div lang="en-GB" class="" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;"><div class="" style="width: 892px; font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial;">The confusing thing is when the fuel saving is overstated because people report some proxy for the heat transfer efficiency instead of the energy consumption (represented by kg consumed). </div></div></blockquote></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Perhaps I am missing something here? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Stove testing in labs we can only do heat transfer efficiency HTE. To test fuel consumption you would need a lot of fuel to get values meaning anything. Fuel consumption is someone else job that works in the field. They can do that based on the lab results of HTE and sorting all the biomass to see what fraction can be used in a stove based on reported fuel limits for the stove. We give them (per task) the weight of fuel, moisture, kj energy in the fuel used. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Usable HTE values will differ with each fuel type so there needs to be a list and description of fuels in potential locations. We need real control over the energy used and, as I have suggested in the past, the TGA will provide that info. I am suggesting we add the (pyrolyzes energy) + (the CO > CO2 energy) = (the total energy used) to complete a task. The fuel used is adjusted to within a few percent of the moisture reported to be typical and no calculation are done with the water in the fuel - and we use HHV results. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">This is a lot easier than it reads. It seems we no longer want labs around the World to test stoves and open the selection to many more stove designers? </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">See below</div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 21, 2015, at 8:38 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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Dear Frank</div>
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You ask a very important question: it is about the 'thermal efficiency'. </div>
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Do you think that the thermal efficiency refers to the fuel consumption? Because you are in a sense outside the system, your opinion matters. If you are under the impression that the thermal efficiency tells us something about a stove, what is it exactly?</div>
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Because 'thermal efficiency' can mean half a dozen things at least, the perception of its meaning is important. Hence my interest. </div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div lang="en-GB" style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); line-height: initial;" class="">
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"<span style="line-height: initial;" class="">And we (you people) choose the stove for them and purchase in bulk. Am I right?"</span></div>
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<span style="line-height: initial;" class="">No. I have never been involved in the bulk purchase of stoves. It is always some sort of assisted purchased with the models open to the vendors to try to sell. The supported models are tested first to see if they meet the
program goals and customer preferences. People but what they want. In a refugee camp situation I believe the UNHCR, for example, does buy stoves in bulk and hand them out to camp occupants. That is a small % of stoves sold. There are models of stove that
are only available through such programs, meaning they are not on the open market.</span></div>
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Sometimes the preferences for the purchaser align with the promoting agency, sometimes not. In Ulaanbaatar the customers wanted fuel savings (kg per day) and the project wanted PM2.5 reduction. Both were provided in the approved models. </div>
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The confusing thing is when the fuel saving is overstated because people report some proxy for the heat transfer efficiency instead of the energy consumption (represented by kg consumed). </div>
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It is a surprise to me that this has been so difficult to resolve. If it uses more fuel per day, then reporting that it 'uses less energy' is misleading. Right?</div>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin <br style="line-height: initial;" class="">
<span style="line-height: initial;" class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Crispin,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">People buy cars not due to gas millage. They buy pick up trucks to haul dirt, old cars to save money, new cars so neighbors think they are rich, vans so they can crawl in the back to sleep and save on motels on road trips. Then there is the most
important - the color.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The mistake the ’stove community’ makes is that they think they know why someone purchases a stove and they then tell them what stove they should buy. All we need to do is state what the stove is expected to do and the products left behind (ash,
char) and let them pick. Of course producing the most clean burning stove and high thermal efficiency for a task should be our goal - but that does not necessarily compute to the one someone should purchase. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">OK - I am not in the ‘field’ working like most of others. And stoves are being sold to many different clients. And the one we are all mostly targeting are the poorest of the poor. The ones really suffering. And we (you people) choose the stove
for them and purchase in bulk. Am I right? </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So it is important to have a selection (and qualities listed) to pick from *designed to use the fuel available* and *complete the task needed*. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="" lang="en-GB" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); line-height:initial">
<div class="" style="width:892px; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">If the energy released in the chamber is important, you should argue why, and to whom, and what, if anything, it offers a customer while being free to describe various consumers of the information. </span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Everyone on this list working in the field knows more than I BUT from my learning it seems the poorest of the poor has a short supply of fuel, that it is being depleted and dangerous to obtain. Based on that we need very efficient stoves. And
regardless of that we should be trying to produce them anyway - good science. And clean burning and less fuel for a task = clean air and better health. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">And we are only talking cooking stoves - not room heating stoves or giving light. The others are for a different ’task’. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="" lang="en-GB" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); line-height:initial">
<div class="" style="width:892px; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">One of the most interesting things about the stove designing community is a historical obsession with the heat transfer efficiency.</span></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">One of the most interesting things about the stove community to me is that they can’t design a test method for testing stoves with variables controlled and targeted for a specific fuel and location. All the heat transfer efficiency values that
I know of has been done without control of the variables (Box 1) and fuel not representing a specific site - except for the studies done on site that are very costly and offer very little in the way of stove choices. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""> Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
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<div class="" lang="en-GB" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); line-height:initial">
<div class="" style="width:892px; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'"><br class="">
</span></div>
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<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 21, 2015, at 7:30 PM, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<a href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>> wrote:</div>
<br class="x_Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="" lang="en-GB" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255); line-height:initial">
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Dear Frank</div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">"The importance of ‘outside’ the stove is left to the end user and is used to pick one stove over another."</span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">Well, that is why people buy cars based on their fuel consumption. The compression ratio and the combustion efficiency is not useful information for the customer, only the design engineers. </span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">One of the most interesting things about the stove designing community is a historical obsession with the heat transfer efficiency. It was never a good guide to fuel consumption and with the advent of char makers,
has become positively toxic to the stove selection process. People think they are being told the fuel consumption when they see "efficiency" numbers. </span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">If the energy released in the chamber is important, you should argue why, and to whom, and what, if anything, it offers a customer while being free to describe various consumers of the information. </span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">How would you approach that challenge?</span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'"><br class="">
</span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">Regards </span></div>
<div class="" style="width:100%; font-size:initial; font-family:Calibri,'Slate Pro',sans-serif,sans-serif; color:rgb(31,73,125); text-align:initial; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:'Slate Pro'">Crispin </span></div>
<br class="">
<div class="" style="word-wrap:break-word">Dear Crispin, Paul and Stovers,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><snip></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class=""><span class="" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">2. Crispin asks:</span></div>
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
Which would you finance: a reduction in the energy drawn from the forest? Or a reduction in the energy released from the fuel consumed?</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">There
is no single correct response. Both should be calculated and reported. And the circumstances need to be understood. <span class="x_x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The Correct Response Is! ….. : )</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><snip></div>
<div class="">OR</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">1) (Crispin added) a reduction in the energy drawn from the forest?</div>
<div class="">2) the time it takes to gather fuel</div>
<div class="">3) the ability of the forest to regenerate</div>
<div class="">4) the type of fuel that is used (vegetative matter, dead twigs, wood)</div>
<div class="">5) business possibilities gathering wood</div>
<div class="">6) char (or not) being made</div>
<div class="">7) reduction of degrees of hazard gathering biomass</div>
<div class="">8) the number of wheelbarrow loads of wood being moved</div>
<div class="">9) etc. etc.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">All equal as a measure as the ‘reduction of energy drawn from the forest’. The importance of looking at it from outside the stove depends on the site specific situation. So for our purpose of testing stoves it is only important to look at it from
inside the combustion chamber - “reduction of energy released from fuel consumption”. The importance of ‘outside’ the stove is left to the end user and is used to pick one stove over another. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Therefore we only need to calculate the Energy Used in the Combustion Chamber in a 1) repeatable 2) accurate 3) with precision 4) and common producible results from all (certified) labs doing the tests. The ‘outside’ results can then be determined
on a site specific and importance for the potential purchaser. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">So we start with Box 1 and get control of the fuel. Place limits on the fuel for a specific combustion chamber. Market the stove to locations having that fuel with those limits available. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">and we can start doing this any old time </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Regards</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank Shields</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
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