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Ahhh, but you <i>can</i> go wrong....<br>
<br>
What if one "quenches" the end-of-batch char with a sound dousing
of H2O, and that sopping wet (DAF) carbon is found to "still have
hydrogen and lots of oxygen left indicating not a good biochar" (due
to some volatiles)? This (DAF) carbon might <u><i>not</i></u> be
very suitable for char cookin' anymore, which could bring us back
down to a lower "efficiency" -- 0% in the case where one does not
"use the pyrolysis gases for something" (cooking, heating [CHC, CHB,
CHP, CHPB]), ...or, at least to a value that would be something
approaching the "heat transfer efficiency" of flame --> pot
--> water/food/load due to the <i>use</i> of the pyrolysis gases
that were liberated during the pyrolysis process (expressed as a
ratio of the initial total energy of the biomass fuel (dry weight)).<br>
<br>
I suppose this is where the confusion / debate comes, since not
everyone applies a "value" to the char ~ or at least not to the
Energy (equivalency) of the char that is produced [whether or not it
could be considered valuable "biochar" or "fuel for producing
additional biochar... or energy").<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72"> Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.biochar-consulting.ca">www.biochar-consulting.ca</a>
Earth Stewardship consultant, Passive Remediation Systems Ltd. (PRSI)
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.prsi.ca/">http://www.prsi.ca/</a>
Promotions Manager, Climate Smart Agriculture Youth Network (CSAYN)
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://csayouthnetwork.wordpress.com/">http://csayouthnetwork.wordpress.com/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fao.org/climate-smart-agriculture/">http://www.fao.org/climate-smart-agriculture/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.linkedin.com/grp/home?gid=6756248">https://www.linkedin.com/grp/home?gid=6756248</a>
48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
905-707-8754
CELL: 647-886-8754
Skype: lloyd.helferty
Co-manager, Sustainable Agriculture Group
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Sustainable-Agriculture-3866458">http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Sustainable-Agriculture-3866458</a>
Steering Committee coordinator
Canadian Biochar Initiative (CBI)
Community Sustainability (CoSWoG), A working group of Science for Peace
was: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.scienceforpeace.ca/currents/">http://www.scienceforpeace.ca/currents/</a>
President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
Manager, Biochar Offsets Group:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475">http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475</a>
Advisory Committee Member, IBI
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717">http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario">http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/">http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.biocharontario.ca">http://www.biocharontario.ca</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.biochar.ca">www.biochar.ca</a>
"Start loving the people in your life more unconditionally and relating to them more conditionally."
- Wm. Paul Young</pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2015-11-25 3:49 PM, Frank Shields
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4AE1B84F-8AB3-4CE9-B324-08D36DB45FD2@cruzio.com"
type="cite">
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Dear Ron and Stovers,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My interest is controlling the fuel. This done by 1)
collecting fuel like that being used in real World and 2)
normalizing the energy value going to the secondary by using
pyrolyze gases + (CO -> CO2) values. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">I cannot determine any energy efficiency values
because this is just one side of the equation. And you do not
supply me with the values of this one side as I need them. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">The value I am proposing is only useful for energy
traveling to another location - secondary. Making char does not
require energy, in fact it waste energy. And (bio-)char does not
have useful energy, in fact the energy is locked up and cannot
be used by soil microbes for 1000 years. So what I propose is
not applicatable to what you are talking about and not intended
to be so. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Your (bio-)char (not charcoal used for cooking) is
not ‘energy’ locked up but should be referred to as carbon.
Following the total carbon in the feedstock; separating it into
available carbon and non-available carbon (TGA) for optimum then
determining the amount actually made from your char-maker is
more to what you want. And that being your efficiency values. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">But in a World that is connecting fuel energy
producing non-available carbon (biochar) and that biochar is
made >90% carbon (DAF) I guess it would be ok to assign
non-available carbon with an energy value and use in
calculations. Lets see if we can do that:</div>
<div class="">1) we need total energy of the biomass fuel (dry
weight)</div>
<div class="">2) using TGA we need energy of the total char (DAF) </div>
<div class="">We assume the char (DAF) is 90+% carbon and assign
that an energy value.</div>
<div class="">3) We determine energy of the pyrolysis gases (total
- char)</div>
<div class=""> 4) So thats the total maximum amount of energy
assigned to biochar that should be produced in your devise. </div>
<div class="">5) You run YOUR device and produce biochar. Ash a
subsample to determine the weight of biochar (DAF). Assign an
energy value to it based on biochar (DAF) being >90% carbon. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Now you can calculate the efficiency of your device
at producing biochar.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Note: If you have wood (dry) and you use the
pyrolysis gases for something, you use the CO->CO2 gases for
something and use the (Bio-)char left over for something then
100% of the energy in the wood is always used. You are left with
efficiency determinations found (compared to that determined by
TGA) for making biochar. But if making biochar is found less
than expected so to be not very efficient then the non-biochar
gases (CO -> CO2) went to join the pyrolysis gases and it
still always = all adds up to 100%. You can’t go wrong!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Where you can go wrong is if after making the
biochar you test it to see if it still has hydrogen and lots of
oxygen left indicating not a good biochar and it is then wasted.
This is bad.</div>
<div class="">But if still good for char cooking (due to some
volatiles) you are now back to 100% efficiency. You can’t go
wrong!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">100% efficiency every time!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Love it!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Frank </div>
<br>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:52 AM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">Paul,
Brian, and lists:</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>1.
Thanks to both Paul and Brian (their messages below).
Brian’s is a nice comparison to CHP. The efficiency
for CHP is always taken as the sum of the separate power
and heat. Using the waste heat is clearly to everyone’s
advantage (save companies selling less fuel). Biochar
literature has tacked on a B to discuss combined heat,
power and biochar as CHPB. There is a considerable
difference from CHP in that the B = biochar competes
with the H and P. More B means less of both H and P.
But the terms are all (necessarily) measured in energy
terms. What other units could be used?</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
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auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>The
same seems true for what Brian is calling CHC. No
reason not to use this, but an alternative is obviously
CHB. If one was producing char only for further
combustion, then CHC would certainly be preferred. The
stoves list will probably use both CHC and CHB
interchangeably. Biochar (three sites receiving this)
and climate (on which this first started) lists will
presumably mostly prefer CHB.</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
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text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I
cannot accept Frank Shield’s arguments below. He is
trying to force a false preference between char-making
or not - when such a choice is not needed. Both are
wanted by many if not most stove users. I again ask
Frank to express an opinion on which efficiency and
inefficiency (presumably always inversely related
exactly) is best. His reply to me was not used by Brian
- so readers will have to go back to a message close to
mine on the 22nd.</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I
similarly reject the arguments by Kevin Chisholm against
the use of both the third and fourth efficiencies. Like
Frank, he offers no answers to my two basic ending
questions, and (I find) no valid reasons for those two
rejections.</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I
have added Prof. Jain again - as it was his comment
(below) that I quoted in moving this climate thread to
the stoves and biochar arenas:</div>
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</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote
cite="mid:ED8DBA5CC1AC4DB7A7732C71CC0650C1@BriansLaptop"
type="cite" class="" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px
4px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
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text="#000000"
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cite="mid:7EFA90FF-F5E7-428B-A026-F86ECB6D5529@comcast.net"
type="cite"
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id="ygrp-text"
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<blockquote
cite="mid:IbIfPJ1QR0CvVCT6izM16A@ismtpd0005p1iad1.sendgrid.net"
type="cite"
class=""
style="margin:
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<div class=""
style="line-height:
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680px;">
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><i
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;
font-size:
x-large;
color: rgb(46,
46, 46);">t<u
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><b
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">he
energy stored
in the </b></u></span><u
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;
font-size:
x-large;
color: rgb(46,
46, 46);"><b
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">charcoal</b></u><span
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;
font-size:
x-large;
color: rgb(46,
46, 46);"> </span><u
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;
font-size:
x-large;
color: rgb(46,
46, 46);"><b
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">should
be considered
</b></u></i><i
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><u
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;
font-size:
x-large;
color: rgb(46,
46, 46);"><b
class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">as a
useful
energy. </b></u></i></div>
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class="">
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</div>
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</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px;
text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto;
word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>I
again urge readers new to this thread to read his
lengthy scholarly (free) article relating climate issues
to stoves in numerous ways.</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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</div>
<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans:
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space: pre;"> </span>To
all - I hope we can hear more on especially the
inefficiency computations; forget efficiencies. Also on
what is the physics or chemistry which causes
char-making stoves to be more efficient? Is the fuel
composition of either/both H2 and O2 important?
Another possibility is that it is where the flame
appears. Burning char in a TLUD is obviously
inefficient because the main flame and energy release is
as far from the cook pot as possible - below the char,
not above it.</div>
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<div class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
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word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">To
Paul - I hope this is what you wanted.</div>
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<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 25, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Paul
Anderson wrote:</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote type="cite" class=""><br
class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;">Stovers,</span><br
class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
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background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;">The comment below
from Brian to one Listserv merits being sent to
the Stoves Listserv and Biocharstoves Listserv.
Brian's comments make a lot of sense. Let's
discuss further and see if some "implementation"
can result. <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br
class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
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rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;">I hope that Ron will
filter and coordinate any such discussions because
there are numerous listservs to which the messages
need to be circulated at least occasionally.
There should be assistance from the rest of us,
especially if implementation is to occur.</span><br
class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<br class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
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normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
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<span class="" style="font-family: Helvetica;
font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant:
normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing:
normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255); float: none;
display: inline !important;">Paul</span><br
class="" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size:
18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size: 18px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix" style="font-family:
Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align:
start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none;
white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing:
0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;
background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">On
11/24/2015 8:54 PM, 'Brian Dougherty'<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>[biochar]
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:ED8DBA5CC1AC4DB7A7732C71CC0650C1@BriansLaptop"
type="cite" class="" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px
4px; font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px;
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal;
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal;
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0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal;
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rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div id="ygrp-mlmsg" class="" style="font-size:
13px; font-family: Arial, helvetica, clean,
sans-serif; position: relative;">
<div id="ygrp-msg" class="" style="line-height:
1.22em; z-index: 1;">
<div id="ygrp-text" class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em; font-family:
Georgia;">
<div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;
margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">
<div class="" style="line-height: 1.22em;
font-size: 12pt; font-family: Calibri;">
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">Ron,</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">I don’t see a problem with
reporting the higher efficiency values
as long as it’s made clear what is
included in that number. As an
example, combined heat and power (CHP)
plants typically report high
efficiencies because they are
factoring in the energy from the heat
plus the energy from the electricity,
but the name implies they are
capturing both. A char making stove
that is also heating water is
essentially a miniature CHP plant if
you think of the char as the “power’'
output, but it would need to be
labeled as such. It’s a matter of
semantics, but if a unit is marketed
as a char maker or a stove then the
higher efficiency numbers might be
misleading. If it’s marketed as or
intended to be a combined heat and
char maker (CHC stove?) then the
higher number makes sense.</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">Brian<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em; font-size: small;
text-decoration: none; font-family:
Calibri; font-weight: normal;
font-style: normal;">
<div class="" style="line-height:
normal; font-style: normal;
font-variant: normal; font-weight:
normal; font-size: 10pt;
font-family: tahoma;">
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em; background-color: rgb(245,
245, 245);">
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"><b class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">From:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com</a></a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"><b class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">Sent:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday,
November 24, 2015 5:38 AM</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"><b class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">To:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">Discussion
of biomass</a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"><b class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">Cc:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="sureshjiitd@gmail.com"
href="mailto:sureshjiitd@gmail.com" class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">S. Jain (Env. Engg.)</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biocharstoves-7xpll@wiggiomail.com"
href="mailto:biocharstoves-7xpll@wiggiomail.com" class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">Entire
Group</a><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="biochar@yahoogroups.com"
href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">Biochar</a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"><b class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">Subject:</b><span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re:
[Stoves] [biochar]
[biochar-stoves] A review of
chronological development in
cookstove assessment methods:
Challenges and way forward</div>
</div>
</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em; font-size: small;
text-decoration: none; font-family:
Calibri; font-weight: normal;
font-style: normal;"><span class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </span>
<div id="ygrp-text" class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;
font-family: Georgia;">
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><br
class="webkit-block-placeholder">
</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">Frank et al</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>Those
of us working on char-making
stoves (a category bigger than
TLUDs ) don’t have the “<i
class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">don’t know what to do
with” problem.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Even
better is that they seem cleaner
and are apt to save time and money
(maybe make money). The issue is
reporting - if you feel such a
stove (stove not char-maker) has
merit. What is your answer to my
two questions?</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">Ron</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class="" style="line-height:
1.22em;">
<blockquote type="cite" class=""
style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 4px;
line-height: 1.22em;">
<div class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">On
Nov 23, 2015, at 12:36 AM,
Frank Shields wrote:</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">
<div class=""
style="line-height: 1.22em;">Dear
Ron,
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">If your task is
to make char your
calculations is dry weight
of fuel IN and weight of
char (DAF) OUT. Boiling
water is just something to
do so you can have a cup
of tea while you wait.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">If your task is
boiling water and you are
left with char you have a
byproduct to add to your
garden.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">If you want both
I suggest you place an
importance on each
(percentage of importance)
for the span of a year or
season. Then with each run
you keep track of the char
produced and water boiled
and try to achieve your
percentage ratio. At the
end of the year you may
need to just boil off some
water to get more char or
have left over char you
don’t know what to do
with.<span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">Regards</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">Frank</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">Frank Shields</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">
<blockquote type="cite"
class=""
style="margin: 0px 0px
0px 4px; line-height:
1.22em;">
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">On Nov 22,
2015, at 9:36 PM,
Ronal W. Larson
wrote:</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">Lloyd
et al: Adding
“stoves - as
that is where we
have had a
similar dialog
in the past</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>I
promised an
example. Use
energy of wood
and charcoal as
measured to be
18 and 30 MJ/kg
- both
possible.)</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>Assume
1 kg of wood
into the stove -
or 18 MJ. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>Assume
water boiling
away calculates
to 6 MJ;
Effic1 = 6/18 =
33% (Some say
stop here; this
is a typical
number for many
stoves including
TLUDs)</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>Assume
(to get easy
numbers) 26.7%
(a little high
but a possible
number) by
weight char
production -
gives .267* 30 =
8 MJ in the
char. Effic2 =
8/18 = .444 =
44%, <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>Using
the pyrolysis
gases in the
denominator -
Effic 3 =
6/(18-8) = 6/10
= 60% (This use
of the char
energy in the
denominator is
the most common
way of handling
char- added
(60-33 =) 27% to
the reported
value of the
stove - )</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>But
I think it more
proper to add
the first two
efficiencies:
Effic4 = Effic1+
Effic 2 =
.333+.444 =
.777 (17.7%
bigger than the
60% value - and
I think also an
honest way to
look at what is
going on. Last
I saw, EPA did
not add these
together, but
they did report
Effic 1 and
Effic 2. Sales
people for
biochar and
TLUDs are apt to
add them of
course. We
obviously want
both numbers to
be as high as
possible.</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>The
losses are
18-6-8 = 4 MJ
or 4/18= 22.2%
(mostly hot
gases). This is
what we should
be concentrating
on - not 100-60
= 40%. In
inefficiency
terms, I claim
the losses we
want to reduce
are nowhere near
40% - if you
want both char
and water boiled
away. 40% is
the portion of
energy in the
pyrolysis gases
that we failed
to capture. <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>If
we burnt the
wood (no
resultant char)
rather than
pyrolyze it, we
might expect to
have a 60%
efficient stove
- but no-one
measures any
wood stove that
high. Why not?
I don’t have a
good answer, but
suspect it might
relate to how
hydrogen fits
in. That is -
with little
hydrogen in the
char, the hot
gases are more
hydrogen rich
with a pyrolysis
stove. Better
heat transfer
with more
hydrogen? A
hotter flame?
Or is the effect
due to oxygen -
which also is a
lower percentage
in char than in
wood? Or both?</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"> </div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>Comments
appreciated when
we are striving
to make char in
a stove:</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span>Q1:
are the losses
22%, 40%, or
67%?</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span> <span
class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Q2: Is the efficiency 78%, 60%,
or 33%?</div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="line-height: 1.22em; white-space: pre;"></span></div>
<div class=""
style="line-height:
1.22em;">Ron<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<snip><br>
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