<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=windows-1252"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">Dear Paul, Ron, Stovers,<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Efficiencies requires two values: amount IN vs amount OUT. When I talked of 100% efficiency I was referring to 100% of the IN biofuel being accounted for and used (rather than some being wasted). </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We have biofuel that gives many products. Some products are produced from energy being delivered to them, therefore determining energy distribution is necessary -to match like fuels during testing and later determine the fuel efficiency completing a cooking task. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">But products have value. Each a different value depending on the person and averaged over a community. The value will be determined if enough different stoves are available for those using them so they can pick the best from them. And using the stove giving the best value for the World can be ‘encouraged’ from society. So thanks to Ron (a very persistent person -thanks) I may be changing my view on how stoves should be valued. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">We need the energy discussion to come up with a means of fairly testing many stoves at low cost in labs certified labs around the World. </div><div class="">We need to list products (soup, biochar, heat, ash etc) produced and ordered as to importance for a location.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Forming a list containing only clean burning energy efficient stoves (for those products) and a list of all the products produced in order of importance for a local could be the list of stoves to choose from for doing the more expensive and long field study. </div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">something like that…..?</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Regards</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Frank Shields</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Nov 26, 2015, at 9:03 AM, Paul Anderson <<a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" class="">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class="">
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<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000" class="">
Dear all,<br class="">
<br class="">
The Subject is Efficiency, Inefficiency, or maybe "Losses". But I
will not change the Subject line. I am trying to understand the
discussion. My comments below might need some refinements.<br class="">
<br class="">
It appears that there are too many problems and differing
interpretations to be discussing "efficiency." So we are looking
at decreasing the INefficiencies. Said differently, if the
resultant characteristic is useful, it is not a loss.<br class="">
<br class="">
Therefore, if a stove makes char and if that char is considered
useful, it should be counted as "good" and not as a loss.<br class="">
<br class="">
Therefore, char that is saved for later burning OR char that is
saved for placement into soil as biochar can be considered as
purposeful and with value and with merit. We are not trying to
attach some value to that char, because the value could be measured
as energy, "raw fuel consumed", monetary $ value, or even
food-productivity for the coming growing season (1) or seasons (2
through 10 or many more). Those values cannot be equated unless
some specific situation / location / condition is selected, which
would be biased against other possible situations / conditions.<br class="">
<br class="">
So, if a stove makes 20% char (by weight), that should be considered
favorably. But that 20% by weight is about 30% of the energy
content of the original biomass. But zero % of the original biomass
remains in its original biomass form. I do not know which number
should be used.<br class="">
<br class="">
Hmmmmmm. I am not sure that discussing inefficiency is going to
resolve the fundamental differences in the points of view others are
expressing. <br class="">
<br class="">
Happy Thanksgiving Day to the American readers. To the rest of
you, have a nice work day!!!<br class="">
<br class="">
Paul <br class="">
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 11/26/2015 9:10 AM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br class="">
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:3C367954-F41C-4A72-A52B-A00468E169CD@comcast.net" type="cite" class="">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html;
charset=windows-1252" class="">
<div class="">Crispin and lists (some added)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Yours
is a perfect example of my complaint. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Apparently
you believe that the inefficiency of this stove (which I would
call a wonderful stove) is 1- .334 = .666 (66.6%). I disagree-
that is not the inefficiency. If you have a different
perception of the word “inefficiency” - what is it? Please give
your view on inefficiency (NOT efficiency) for this specific
example - which is amazingly close to the example I gave to
start this thread (almost 30% char!!)</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
sure wish you had supplied a cite, so I could look further into
the testing. I have no way of knowing from this test anything
about the char - which this stove was clearly trying to produce.
Jim Jetter does enough post testing to give us that number.
One might assume you don’t know, since it is not given (and
would be of considerable interest to anyone buying this stove.
But to get your 12.81 MJ/kg (four significant figures !!) in
the fuel consumed, you must have the char energy content to the
same accuracy.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
also have to question the computations. How can I find how you
got the numbers of 12.81 MJ/kg. Do you really believe you know
that to 4 significant figures? What was the fuel moisture
content and how recently measured?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Why
is 2.1 kW a “Fail”? Sounds pretty good to me. Is this due to
the same reasoning that causes a CSI rating of only two stars?
Would the EPA methodology give this two stars?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Whew!
I still have to “commend” you for trying so hard to convince
the world that biochar and char-making stoves make no sense.
But your commenting on the word “inefficiency” for this
particular stove would still be helpful to a few of us. And
letting us know who did this testing - and where to read about
the procedures.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span id="cid:part1.04010304.07090707@ilstu.edu"><Mail Attachment.jpeg></span></div>
<br class="">
<div class="">
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Nov 25, 2015, at 10:25 PM, Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott <<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" class="">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a>>
wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div class="WordSection1" style="page: WordSection1;
font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 18px; font-style:
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal;
letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start;
text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space:
normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px;
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Dear
Ron<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">In case
you are under the impression that people are not
reporting the mass of char produced, here is a sample
of a stove test using the CSI method.<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div class="">
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(225, 225, 225);
border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm;" class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Regards<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">Crispin<o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></span></div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span id="imap://psanders@mailvpn.ilstu.edu:993/fetch%3EUID%3E/INBOX%3E178017?header=quotebody&part=1.1.2.2&filename=image001.jpg" class=""><image001.jpg></span><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri,
sans-serif;" class="" lang="EN-US"><o:p class=""></o:p></span></div>
</div>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class="">Art
and ccs<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span class="apple-tab-span"> <span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span></span>
Another message from you a little later said you would
be creating (I think) a place to archive this series
on how to report on TLUDs in a consistent and helpful
way. Thanks for that.<o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
</div>
<div class="">
<blockquote style="margin-top: 5pt; margin-bottom: 5pt;" class="" type="cite">
<div class="">
<div class="">
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size:
12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125);" class="">[snip]</span><o:p class=""></o:p></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt;
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif;" class=""><o:p class=""> </o:p></div>
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