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Dear Lloyd</div>
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Your point may be too subtle for some. How about this: the 'remains' may or may not have 'value' depending on the intended use. What you can track, as you noted at the end of your message, is to track the total energy going into the primary combustor and the
work it accomplishes. That is its energy efficiency as a cooker. </div>
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I have not yet seen any justification for tracking the energy in the recoverable portion of the unburned remaining fuel. I mean, why not track the energy in the unrecoverable fuel as well? Who decides what is a recoverable or unrecoverable particle of fuel?
Are partially burned gases (CO and H2) unrecoverable remnant fuel? What the heck is the point of all the machinations?</div>
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People ask what the fuel efficiency is. It is an imperfect question because there is more than one fuel type. It is best answered as an energy efficiency question. </div>
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Where energy costs money you can make a monetary calculation of input and char values, no problem. That answers an economic question, but not a fuel consumption question. </div>
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The core reason for funding CDM biomass projects is to reduce the off-take of unsustainably harvested biomass. A 'more fuel efficient' stove can do that. Some are better than others so a measurement must be made. The obvious metric is the need for raw fuel. </div>
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That doesn't preclude the combination of multiple stoves in a system, analysed as a cooking system. What is not going to fly as an argument, is that a stove which uses the same amount of unsustainably harvested biomass and puts 20% of it into the ground in
the form of inert carbon, is "more efficient" than the baseline stove. </div>
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If someone pays me to bury the carbon while continuing to use the same amount of unsustainably harvested fuel, that is a deal that exists outside the purpose of the Clean Development Mechanism. As Uganda is finding out right now, some advanced stoves with
'additional features' are leading to an increase in overall fuel consumption: electricity generating stoves are being run all day to keep the power on. This was predicted right here in Stoves, remember?</div>
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Now what? We are subsidising the destruction of the forest! That is as crazy as burning the Indonesian jungle to plant oil palms to subsidise the making of 'biofuel' to sell in Europe to 'offset carbon emissions'. All these ideas need a sanity check before
being implemented. </div>
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Regards </div>
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Crispin </div>
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<div style="background-color:#FFFFFF">Ahhh, but you <i>can</i> go wrong....<br>
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What if one "quenches" the end-of-batch char with a sound dousing of H2O, and that sopping wet (DAF) carbon is found to "still have hydrogen and lots of oxygen left indicating not a good biochar" (due to some volatiles)? This (DAF) carbon might
<u><i>not</i></u> be very suitable for char cookin' anymore, which could bring us back down to a lower "efficiency" -- 0% in the case where one does not "use the pyrolysis gases for something" (cooking, heating [CHC, CHB, CHP, CHPB]), ...or, at least to a value
that would be something approaching the "heat transfer efficiency" of flame --> pot --> water/food/load due to the
<i>use</i> of the pyrolysis gases that were liberated during the pyrolysis process (expressed as a ratio of the initial total energy of the biomass fuel (dry weight)).<br>
<br>
I suppose this is where the confusion / debate comes, since not everyone applies a "value" to the char ~ or at least not to the Energy (equivalency) of the char that is produced [whether or not it could be considered valuable "biochar" or "fuel for producing
additional biochar... or energy").<br>
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Regards,<br>
<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72"> Lloyd Helferty, Engineering Technologist
Principal, Biochar Consulting (Canada)
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.biochar-consulting.ca">www.biochar-consulting.ca</a>
Earth Stewardship consultant, Passive Remediation Systems Ltd. (PRSI)
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.prsi.ca/">http://www.prsi.ca/</a>
Promotions Manager, Climate Smart Agriculture Youth Network (CSAYN)
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://csayouthnetwork.wordpress.com/">http://csayouthnetwork.wordpress.com/</a>
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.fao.org/climate-smart-agriculture/">http://www.fao.org/climate-smart-agriculture/</a>
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https://www.linkedin.com/grp/home?gid=6756248">https://www.linkedin.com/grp/home?gid=6756248</a>
48 Suncrest Blvd, Thornhill, ON, Canada
905-707-8754
CELL: 647-886-8754
Skype: lloyd.helferty
Co-manager, Sustainable Agriculture Group
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Sustainable-Agriculture-3866458">http://www.linkedin.com/groups/Sustainable-Agriculture-3866458</a>
Steering Committee coordinator
Canadian Biochar Initiative (CBI)
Community Sustainability (CoSWoG), A working group of Science for Peace
was: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.scienceforpeace.ca/currents/">http://www.scienceforpeace.ca/currents/</a>
President, Co-founder & CBI Liaison, Biochar-Ontario
Manager, Biochar Offsets Group:
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475">http://www.linkedin.com/groups?home=&gid=2446475</a>
Advisory Committee Member, IBI
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717">http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1404717</a>
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675">http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=42237506675</a>
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario">http://groups.google.com/group/biochar-ontario</a>
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/">http://www.meetup.com/biocharontario/</a>
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.biocharontario.ca">http://www.biocharontario.ca</a>
<a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.biochar.ca">www.biochar.ca</a>
"Start loving the people in your life more unconditionally and relating to them more conditionally."
- Wm. Paul Young</pre>
<div class="x_moz-cite-prefix">On 2015-11-25 3:49 PM, Frank Shields wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">Dear Ron and Stovers,
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">My interest is controlling the fuel. This done by 1) collecting fuel like that being used in real World and 2) normalizing the energy value going to the secondary by using pyrolyze gases + (CO -> CO2) values. </div>
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<div class="">I cannot determine any energy efficiency values because this is just one side of the equation. And you do not supply me with the values of this one side as I need them. </div>
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<div class="">The value I am proposing is only useful for energy traveling to another location - secondary. Making char does not require energy, in fact it waste energy. And (bio-)char does not have useful energy, in fact the energy is locked up and cannot
be used by soil microbes for 1000 years. So what I propose is not applicatable to what you are talking about and not intended to be so. </div>
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<div class="">Your (bio-)char (not charcoal used for cooking) is not ‘energy’ locked up but should be referred to as carbon. Following the total carbon in the feedstock; separating it into available carbon and non-available carbon (TGA) for optimum then determining
the amount actually made from your char-maker is more to what you want. And that being your efficiency values. </div>
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<div class="">But in a World that is connecting fuel energy producing non-available carbon (biochar) and that biochar is made >90% carbon (DAF) I guess it would be ok to assign non-available carbon with an energy value and use in calculations. Lets see if we
can do that:</div>
<div class="">1) we need total energy of the biomass fuel (dry weight)</div>
<div class="">2) using TGA we need energy of the total char (DAF) </div>
<div class="">We assume the char (DAF) is 90+% carbon and assign that an energy value.</div>
<div class="">3) We determine energy of the pyrolysis gases (total - char)</div>
<div class=""> 4) So thats the total maximum amount of energy assigned to biochar that should be produced in your devise. </div>
<div class="">5) You run YOUR device and produce biochar. Ash a subsample to determine the weight of biochar (DAF). Assign an energy value to it based on biochar (DAF) being >90% carbon. </div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">Now you can calculate the efficiency of your device at producing biochar.</div>
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</div>
<div class="">Note: If you have wood (dry) and you use the pyrolysis gases for something, you use the CO->CO2 gases for something and use the (Bio-)char left over for something then 100% of the energy in the wood is always used. You are left with efficiency
determinations found (compared to that determined by TGA) for making biochar. But if making biochar is found less than expected so to be not very efficient then the non-biochar gases (CO -> CO2) went to join the pyrolysis gases and it still always = all adds
up to 100%. You can’t go wrong!</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
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<div class="">Where you can go wrong is if after making the biochar you test it to see if it still has hydrogen and lots of oxygen left indicating not a good biochar and it is then wasted. This is bad.</div>
<div class="">But if still good for char cooking (due to some volatiles) you are now back to 100% efficiency. You can’t go wrong!</div>
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<div class="">100% efficiency every time!</div>
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<div class="">Love it!</div>
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<div class="">Frank </div>
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<div class="">On Nov 25, 2015, at 8:52 AM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:</div>
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Paul, Brian, and lists:</div>
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<span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>1. Thanks to both Paul and Brian (their messages below). Brian’s is a nice comparison to CHP. The efficiency for CHP is always taken as the sum of the separate power and heat. Using the waste
heat is clearly to everyone’s advantage (save companies selling less fuel). Biochar literature has tacked on a B to discuss combined heat, power and biochar as CHPB. There is a considerable difference from CHP in that the B = biochar competes with the H
and P. More B means less of both H and P. But the terms are all (necessarily) measured in energy terms. What other units could be used?</div>
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<span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>The same seems true for what Brian is calling CHC. No reason not to use this, but an alternative is obviously CHB. If one was producing char only for further combustion, then CHC would certainly
be preferred. The stoves list will probably use both CHC and CHB interchangeably. Biochar (three sites receiving this) and climate (on which this first started) lists will presumably mostly prefer CHB.</div>
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<span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I cannot accept Frank Shield’s arguments below. He is trying to force a false preference between char-making or not - when such a choice is not needed. Both are wanted by many if not most stove
users. I again ask Frank to express an opinion on which efficiency and inefficiency (presumably always inversely related exactly) is best. His reply to me was not used by Brian - so readers will have to go back to a message close to mine on the 22nd.</div>
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<span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I similarly reject the arguments by Kevin Chisholm against the use of both the third and fourth efficiencies. Like Frank, he offers no answers to my two basic ending questions, and (I find) no valid
reasons for those two rejections.</div>
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<span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I have added Prof. Jain again - as it was his comment (below) that I quoted in moving this climate thread to the stoves and biochar arenas:</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><i class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="" style="line-height:1.22em; font-size:x-large; color:rgb(46,46,46)">t<u class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><b class="" style="line-height:1.22em">he energy stored
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<span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>I again urge readers new to this thread to read his lengthy scholarly (free) article relating climate issues to stoves in numerous ways.</div>
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<span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"></span>To all - I hope we can hear more on especially the inefficiency computations; forget efficiencies. Also on what is the physics or chemistry which causes char-making stoves to be more efficient?
Is the fuel composition of either/both H2 and O2 important? Another possibility is that it is where the flame appears. Burning char in a TLUD is obviously inefficient because the main flame and energy release is as far from the cook pot as possible - below
the char, not above it.</div>
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To Paul - I hope this is what you wanted.</div>
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Ron</div>
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<div class="">On Nov 25, 2015, at 6:52 AM, Paul Anderson wrote:</div>
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<div class=""><span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">Stovers,</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">The
comment below from Brian to one Listserv merits being sent to the Stoves Listserv and Biocharstoves Listserv. Brian's comments make a lot of sense. Let's discuss further and see if some "implementation" can result. <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
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<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">I
hope that Ron will filter and coordinate any such discussions because there are numerous listservs to which the messages need to be circulated at least occasionally. There should be assistance from the rest of us, especially if implementation is to occur.</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<span class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255); float:none; display:inline!important">Paul</span><br class="" style="font-family:Helvetica; font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; white-space:normal; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">
<pre class="x_moz-signature" cols="72" style="font-size:18px; font-style:normal; font-variant:normal; font-weight:normal; letter-spacing:normal; orphans:auto; text-align:start; text-indent:0px; text-transform:none; widows:auto; word-spacing:0px; background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="x_moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com/">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
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On 11/24/2015 8:54 PM, 'Brian Dougherty'<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>[biochar] wrote:<br class="">
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Ron,</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">I don’t see a problem with reporting the higher efficiency values as long as it’s made clear what is included in that number. As an example, combined heat and power (CHP) plants typically report high efficiencies because
they are factoring in the energy from the heat plus the energy from the electricity, but the name implies they are capturing both. A char making stove that is also heating water is essentially a miniature CHP plant if you think of the char as the “power’'
output, but it would need to be labeled as such. It’s a matter of semantics, but if a unit is marketed as a char maker or a stove then the higher efficiency numbers might be misleading. If it’s marketed as or intended to be a combined heat and char maker (CHC
stove?) then the higher number makes sense.</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Brian<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><b class="" style="line-height:1.22em">From:</b><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="biochar@yahoogroups.com" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="" style="line-height:1.22em"></a><a class="x_moz-txt-link-freetext" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com">mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com</a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><b class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Sent:</b><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Tuesday, November 24, 2015 5:38 AM</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><b class="" style="line-height:1.22em">To:</b><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Discussion
of biomass</a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><b class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Cc:</b><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="sureshjiitd@gmail.com" href="mailto:sureshjiitd@gmail.com" class="" style="line-height:1.22em">S. Jain (Env. Engg.)</a><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="biocharstoves-7xpll@wiggiomail.com" href="mailto:biocharstoves-7xpll@wiggiomail.com" class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Entire
Group</a><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>;<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span><a title="biochar@yahoogroups.com" href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Biochar</a></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><b class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Subject:</b><span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Re: [Stoves] [biochar] [biochar-stoves] A review of chronological development in cookstove assessment methods: Challenges
and way forward</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>Those of us working on char-making stoves (a category bigger than TLUDs ) don’t have the “<i class="" style="line-height:1.22em">don’t
know what to do with” problem.<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></i>Even better is that they seem cleaner and are apt to save time and money (maybe make money). The issue is reporting - if you feel such a stove (stove not char-maker) has merit.
What is your answer to my two questions?</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Ron</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">On Nov 23, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Frank Shields wrote:</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Dear Ron,
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">If your task is to make char your calculations is dry weight of fuel IN and weight of char (DAF) OUT. Boiling water is just something to do so you can have a cup of tea while you wait.<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">If your task is boiling water and you are left with char you have a byproduct to add to your garden.<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">If you want both I suggest you place an importance on each (percentage of importance) for the span of a year or season. Then with each run you keep track of the char produced and water boiled and try to achieve your
percentage ratio. At the end of the year you may need to just boil off some water to get more char or have left over char you don’t know what to do with.<span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Regards</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Frank</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Frank Shields</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">On Nov 22, 2015, at 9:36 PM, Ronal W. Larson wrote:</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em">Lloyd et al: Adding “stoves - as that is where we have had a similar dialog in the past</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>I promised an example. Use energy of wood and charcoal as measured to be 18 and 30 MJ/kg - both possible.)</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>Assume 1 kg of wood into the stove - or 18 MJ. <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>Assume water boiling away calculates to 6 MJ; Effic1 = 6/18 = 33% (Some say stop here; this is a typical number for many stoves including
TLUDs)</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>Assume (to get easy numbers) 26.7% (a little high but a possible number) by weight char production - gives .267* 30 = 8 MJ in the char.
Effic2 = 8/18 = .444 = 44%, <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>Using the pyrolysis gases in the denominator - Effic 3 = 6/(18-8) = 6/10 = 60% (This use of the char energy in the denominator is the
most common way of handling char- added (60-33 =) 27% to the reported value of the stove - )</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>But I think it more proper to add the first two efficiencies: Effic4 = Effic1+ Effic 2 = .333+.444 = .777 (17.7% bigger than the 60%
value - and I think also an honest way to look at what is going on. Last I saw, EPA did not add these together, but they did report Effic 1 and Effic 2. Sales people for biochar and TLUDs are apt to add them of course. We obviously want both numbers to
be as high as possible.</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span></div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>The losses are 18-6-8 = 4 MJ or 4/18= 22.2% (mostly hot gases). This is what we should be concentrating on - not 100-60 = 40%. In
inefficiency terms, I claim the losses we want to reduce are nowhere near 40% - if you want both char and water boiled away. 40% is the portion of energy in the pyrolysis gases that we failed to capture. <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span></div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>If we burnt the wood (no resultant char) rather than pyrolyze it, we might expect to have a 60% efficient stove - but no-one measures
any wood stove that high. Why not? I don’t have a good answer, but suspect it might relate to how hydrogen fits in. That is - with little hydrogen in the char, the hot gases are more hydrogen rich with a pyrolysis stove. Better heat transfer with more
hydrogen? A hotter flame? Or is the effect due to oxygen - which also is a lower percentage in char than in wood? Or both?</div>
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<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>Comments appreciated when we are striving to make char in a stove:</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span>Q1: are the losses 22%, 40%, or 67%?</div>
<div class="" style="line-height:1.22em"><span class="x_Apple-tab-span" style="line-height:1.22em; white-space:pre"></span> <span class="x_Apple-converted-space"> </span>Q2: Is the efficiency 78%, 60%, or 33%?</div>
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