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Bill,<br>
<br>
Thanks for your comments and your videos and for all your efforts.
See my comments in reply to Crispin (separate response). <br>
<br>
Hugh McLaughlin also had a small TLUD (diagonal) with an auger
feeding fuel from the bottom. Not sufficient success to merit
further work. <br>
<br>
For a continuous operation when the budget allows for powered augers
and controls, I favor the AVUD system that is described in the
Boiling Point paper "Micro-gasification: What it is and why it
works." (See Quick Picks at my drtlud.com website). It is NOT a
TLUD. But it is updraft and continuous and scalable and makes
great biochar if desired. Interested people (with budget or with
time plus skills plus workshop) should contact me directly.<br>
<br>
AVUD works in small sizes too, but the automation of the fuel
feeding and char extraction remains rather costly, and manual
operation requires a person's attention at least every 15 minutes or
less. In small sizes, the competition is from
pellet-stove-headers.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 12/5/2015 6:47 PM, biocharFIRST .
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAL+JJxOZ-7VNC3hX=-PZSNBNJS0HMHLXi9k5aWsDtbEFC37fPA@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">
<div>Paul, Frank and all,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I am 100% behind your efforts to make <span class=""
id=":1zx.1" tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">biochar</span> producing
space heating more practical. If everyone who is presently
using biomass for space heating were to start producing <span
class="" id=":1zx.2" tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">biochar</span> it
would be an enormous increase in the amount of <span class=""
id=":1zx.3" tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">biochar</span> being
produced. And because of savings to be had by producing <span
class="" id=":1zx.4" tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">biochar</span>,
which worth more than twice as much as the biomass, I suspect
that the use of biomass for space heating would skyrocket over
the amount currently being used. This could make the expected
results of COP21 seem insignificant in comparison. So please
count me in as a supporter if there is anything I can do. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I can tell you from my experience that I don't think that
a common wall between two <span class="" id=":1zx.6"
tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">TLUD</span> fuel
chambers will work. What will likely happen is that the extra
heat on one wall of the second chamber will cause the
pyrolysis front to channel down the warm side faster than the
cool side. It is also conceivable the asymmetrical insulation
value of the second chamber could also cause the same problem
in the first chamber. And even worse, the biochar on the
insulated side will will start to burn before pyrolysis is
completed on the cool side, thereby raising the temperature
enough that it is likely the second chamber will be bottom
lit. My experience comes from trying to vent the pyrolysis
gas down the center of a 10 foot tall <span class=""
id=":1zx.7" tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">TLUD</span>.
The pyrolysis front reached the bottom faster in the center.
To solve the problem we had to insulate the vent pipe. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The primary reason for my reply is to tell you about my
experience with trying to build a continuous feed <span
class="" id=":1zx.8" tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">TLUD</span> about
5 years ago. I stopped working on the project because of a
lack of any funding other than my SS and the fact that I
didn't have any of the machine shop equipment that would have
been necessary to proceed with the project in a reasonable
time frame. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nevertheless, the <span class="" id=":1zx.9" tabindex="-1"
style="background:yellow">youtube</span> videos below, of an
unfinished unit, show that I did have some success and I am
totally convinced that with a little backing it can bed done.
The idea was to feed a conical <span class="" id=":1zx.10"
tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">TLUD</span> from the
bottom and by using sensors located at various locations on
the cone to turn the feed auger off and on to keep the
pyrolysis front at the location in the cone with the proper
cross section to give you the desired heat output.. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The first thing I learned is that I did not have the skills
to hand build a proper symmetrical cone so I settled on a
pyramid shape which often gave problems because the pecan
shells I was using would not completely pyrolyze in the
corners. I partly solved that problem by lining the feed tube
and elbow with <span class="" id=":1zx.11" tabindex="-1"
style="background:yellow">UHMWP</span> to reduce the
friction. The best solution would be to use a conventional
horizontal auger and a vertical auger coupled together with a
right angle gear box.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The first thing I learned when I tried to operate the <span
class="" id=":1zx.12" tabindex="-1"
style="background:yellow">TLUD</span> is that if you locate
the primary air input at <span class="" id=":1zx.13"
tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">the bottom</span> of
the reactor pyramid, is that the moisture in the gas will
migrate back and condense in the incoming fuel and destabilize
or shut the process down. Even worse if you are using pellet
fuel, the pellets will expand into wet sawdust which stops up
both the auger and air flow. The only solution to this is to
feed the.primary air into and through the air tight fuel
hopper to the reactor.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>The most suprising thing I learned is that because of the
ease with which the pyrolysis can be restarted, (see last
video) is that there would be no need to have a conical
reactor. A straight cylinder could be used and a thermostat
could stop or restart the process with a hot plate igniter or
a piolt light to restart the flame. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wishing You the Best</div>
<div>Bill Knauss</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="https:/">https:/</a><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www/"
target="_blank">/www</a>.<span class="" id=":1zx.14"
tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">youtube</span>.com/watch?v=f4aAsDMDrDk</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www/"
target="_blank">https://www</a>.<span class="" id=":1zx.15"
tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">youtube</span>.com/watch?v=ilUV5ya1xQM <br>
</div>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="https://www/" target="_blank">https://www</a>.<span
class="" id=":1zx.16" tabindex="-1" style="background:yellow">youtube</span>.com/watch?v=xA0qugAsNzI<br>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Dec 5, 2015 at 9:36 AM,
Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" link="blue" vlink="purple"
lang="EN-CA">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Dear
Paul</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">The
idea was tried on a stove called Royal Ocean which
is made in Ulaanbaatar. Briefly the history of the
company is that a Mongolian guy went to Japan and
learned how to make TLUD coal stoves there. When
he got back to Ulaanbaatar he reproduced their two
cylinder, one chimney stove. He also used the same
name. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">It
was brought for testing sometime in early 2011, in
the final, or more final version. As constructed
it was two separate ignitions but we (Lodoysamba
and the guy and I) discussed at that time how to
make one light the other when it burned to the
bottom. It was to use paper where you have
proposed gas. At that time, the TLUD approach was
not fully accepted. The reason for this was the
intermittent nature (which was bound to lead to
problems) and the inevitable refuelling that would
happen with a hot stove (which did and does).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">As
to the merit of having it automatically ignite, I
want to point to something. This does not address
your idea of a continuous operation with dead
cells being swapped when they are not in use, that
is still possible. I am referring the division of
the available fuel space into separate zones.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Why
do it? What does it offer that is an advantage
over a single charge that is either a side draft
or a TLUD? One should answer that and be
convincing before complicating the process. What
the Royal Ocean stove did was to provide two
separate TLUD chambers with a damper system that
allowed the chimney to be connected to one or the
other. It was a space heating and cooking stove.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Having
one light the other when it burned down allows the
two to work in series, no doubt about that. It
saves the operator removing a cassette and
replacing it with a new one so it can burn longer.
It was a good idea from that point of view. It was
a bit complicated in that it had to have two sets
of controls to get a good burn from two separate
combustion ports. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">If
I have a ‘given size’ of fuel loading space, I
can’t see a good reason to divide it into smaller
sections. One reason could be dropping the power
to a low level for a longer time, right? Can that
not be achieved without the complication? That is
what I am wondering.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">In
the end the Royal Ocean product had a single
chamber. I suspect the power level was inadequate
for the physical size, and the cost would have
been substantially higher to make and manage two
separate stoves inside a single housing. It was
impressive to look at and nicely made, but all
things considered, a larger single chamber worked
better.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">A
separate question: would the wall temperature of
one chamber not overheat/pyrolyse the fuel in the
adjacent chamber? Royal had a gap to prevent that,
and they had the two separate with no gas
connection between them because that would have
changed the control over the air flow (over and
under air).</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
looked around for a photo and only came up with
this which is the single chamber version.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><img
src="cid:part5.05040504.01040009@ilstu.edu"
height="474" width="472"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">I
cannot prove anything about why he changed his
approach from two chambers in series into one.
Likely reasons are heating power and complexity.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Regards<span
class="HOEnZb"></span></span></p>
<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d">Crispin</span></p>
</font></span><span class="">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif;color:#1f497d"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank and all,<br>
<br>
Separate from the coal topic of Dushambe, so I
changed the Subject line. <br>
<br>
About a Baffle stove: On 12/4/2015 12:42 PM,
Frank Shields wrote: [with my additions in [... ]
brackets]<br>
<br>
</p>
<blockquote
style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">One idea [to attain a
longer burn time] might be to add a night time
insert. That would [from the side] look like a
<u>IIIIIIII</u></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal">with baffles that go almost
to the base. The base has fuel [coal is being
discussed, but could be other fuel types]
spread across the bottom. You lite [at the
bottom] the one close to the door and that
burns up quickly but it takes longer to ignite
the second baffle and even longer for the
third and so on……</p>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="MsoNormal">Frank, I like the idea of
baffles of some type. Probably done in some ways
somewhere maybe long ago, but baffles are
certainly not evident in currently discussed
stoves and therefore your idea is a new innovation
for us 21st Century stovers.<br>
<br>
I want to add a further variation for
consideration. It is based on TLUD principles.<br>
<br>
Consider a rectangular fuel chamber with several
vertical baffles running across between the long
side walls (3 or 4 are sufficient for the
concept, but could be more.) First thought was
to have square vertical boxes that are in a row,
basically with one side shared by two squares.
(cylinders with obvious spaces is a variation to
discuss later). Call them B1, B2, etc for Box 1,
Box 2......<br>
<br>
Ignite B1 at the top and let the MPF (Migratory
Pyrolytic Front) do its job downward through that
fuel, with burning of the created gases at the
combustor level. When the MPF reaches near the
bottom, it encounters a hole on one side. That
hole is attached to a vertical pipe that is able
to receive some (maybe 20%??) of the pyrolytic
gases. (the percentage could increase if the side
hole is actually a vertical slit / hole that
receives more gases as more of the slit is in the
zone of the MPF.)<br>
<br>
The gases in the vertical pipe (call it an
"ignition pipe") reach the top and are ignited by
the existing flame in the combustor. But those
combusting gases are able to move upward into the
combustor area of the adjoining box B2. In that
way flame is into the area of B2, and within a few
minutes of time B2 has become Top Lit and begins
to operate as a TLUD. The process continues with
B1 essentially shutting down (very little draft)
and several ways of extinguishing the created
charcoal by an operator or even "automatically".
<br>
<br>
B2 ends and transitions to B3 in the same way.
If the burn-time of each Box is approximately one
hour (easy to accomplish with height and with
reasonable fuel like pellets), 8 boxes would
operate the heater through the night.<br>
<br>
Quite literally, the boxes could be in a snake
form or in a "6-pack" or 12 pack or spiral
arrangement and continue for 12 hours or even
longer. If the boxes were of different
cross-sectional areas (different diameters), there
could be different intensities of heat at
different times. That is, the five boxes B4
through B8 could have smaller X-section areas and
give less heat in the hours from midnight to 5 AM,
when B9 could have a larger fire. <br>
<br>
BTW, that B9 fire could be under a pot with bath
water to be heated and ready at 6 AM when needed.<br>
<br>
What is described above is a system for CONTINUAL
TLUD operation, as in a serial continual
sequence. <br>
<br>
This system should work also for larger (such as
barrel-size) TLUDs for making biochar AND with
heat generation through a long cold night inside a
greenhouse. <br>
<br>
Of course it can be improved. And it can have
electronic monitoring and the use of fans and
blowers that can make the TLUDs respond in many
ways. Such a system can have bells and whistles
(figuratively and literally) such as alarms if
temperatures go beyond user-specified highs and
lows, or digital CO sensors with alarms about the
ambient air inside a greenhouse.<br>
<br>
Should it be cylinders instead of square boxes?
One advantage of the cylinders is that the
vertical ignition pipe can be placed in the
natural area where the edges of cylinders are not
touching 00000. But shared walls cost less in
materials, and the heat through the walls help
pre-warm (and pre-dry) the fuel in the next box to
be ignited. But too much heat could cause
premature ignition. These are considerations for
experimentation. <br>
<br>
So, as of 9:30 AM CST on Saturday 5 December 2015,
with the presentation of this message to the
publicly accessed Stoves and Biochar listservs,
the above ideas are made public. I believe that
I and Frank have some intellectual property (IP)
rights for one year after public disclosure. So
if you want to try for patents, etc, you should
include Frank and me. But instead, if your work
is in the public domain, please feel free to get
started. We want you to be successful. But we
do want to be kept informed of activities and to
encourage collaborative efforts. <br>
<br>
To move this concept / idea forward, we need some
time and funding. We hope that it is YOUR time
and YOUR funds, or that you help us find outside
funds that can pay for the time and materials.
Frank and I are both retired. And we do not have
the metalwork shops that should be involved with
this work. So we encourage your participation,
and please keep us informed of your initial
interest (which means tell us SOON), your initial
activities, progress, results, and plans for
taking it further. Our email addresses are:
Paul Anderson <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank"><psanders@ilstu.edu></a>
and Frank Shields <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com" target="_blank"><franke@cruzio.com></a><br>
<br>
We look forward to the discussion and to any
activities. This might all blow over and become
nothing. Or it might be a major step forward.
<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
</p>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
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