<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html charset=utf-8" http-equiv=Content-Type></HEAD>
<BODY
style="WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"
dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>Clean air is good but it does not match reality </DIV>
<DIV>Man lived in dark smokey caves 15,000 to 20,000 years ago.</DIV>
<DIV>Man lives in dark smokey caves cook houses hovel what ever to day,</DIV>
<DIV>Clean air is nice but no the first priority of many. </DIV>
<DIV>Smoke reduces Malaria Dengue Chikengunia and Zika when you can not afford
</DIV>
<DIV>mosquito coils.</DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt tahoma">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<DIV style="font-color: black"><B>From:</B> <A title=franke@cruzio.com
href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">Frank Shields</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, May 19, 2016 8:53 AM</DIV>
<DIV><B>To:</B> <A title=rogerenroute@yahoo.ca
href="mailto:rogerenroute@yahoo.ca">Roger Samson</A> ; <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Fwd: [stove] 30 years went by
quickly</DIV></DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style='FONT-SIZE: small; TEXT-DECORATION: none; FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri"; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; COLOR: #000000; FONT-STYLE: normal; DISPLAY: inline'>Dear
Roger,
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Very well said. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The process goes from Fuel > to > Finished meal. </DIV>
<DIV>Not from Fuel > to > Clean air. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Clean air is one of many ‘conditions’ that must be met. There is no
way of knowing if these clean stoves can actually cook a meal using real fuel.
And because they are tested using dried lumber fuels and pellets - we do not
really know if they are even clean. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Painful it is. I predict another ten years wasted. : (</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Frank</DIV>
<DIV>Frank Shields</DIV>
<DIV>Gabilan Laboratory</DIV>
<DIV><A href="mailto:franke@cruzio.com">franke@cruzio.com</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>On May 18, 2016, at 1:03 PM, Roger Samson <<A
href="mailto:rogerenroute@yahoo.ca">rogerenroute@yahoo.ca</A>> wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>Hi Crispin, Paul and all<BR><BR><BR>Its unfortunate but the reality is
the household cookstove movement is being driven by the "clean indoor air"
agenda. Whatever happened to bottom up development, working with people to
determine what their household cooking needs are? When our agency
installs a low cost, locally built, cleaner burning REAP clay brick BIOMASS
stove in West Africa even the men' face light up because they see the benefit
of the technology for their families. Our clay brick stove uses less
fuelwood, more fuel types, burns cleaner and is faster to cook. Its a major
household energy system upgrade for that family. The sad part is that
the stove doesn't meet the standard of the clean indoor air folks who are
disconnected from the reality of poverty. <BR><BR>Its just painful to watch
the stove sector obsess over indoor air quality and put the lions share of the
resources available on that issue. I think there should be push back.
Biomass is going to remain the main fuel source (especially in rural
areas) until all all other more important development priorities are met like
hunger, health care, housing, schooling and clothing. In the LDC's its just
complete nonsense to think they are moving to liquid biofuels, gas or
electricity any time soon in rural areas. <BR><BR>All those stove policy
makers should spend a week in a rural household to understand how
disconnected they are from the problem. We need appropriate solutions for the
diverse household cooking needs and to make incremental progress. The great
leap forward is just not going to happen. It didn't work very well for
Chairman Mao and its not working for the stoves community.
<BR><BR><BR>regards<BR><BR>Roger
Samson<BR><BR><BR><BR>--------------------------------------------<BR>On Tue,
5/17/16, Crispin Pemberton-Pigott <<A
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">crispinpigott@outlook.com</A>>
wrote:<BR><BR>Subject: Re: [Stoves] Fwd: [stove] 30 years went by
quickly<BR>To: "'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'" <<A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>><BR>Received:
Tuesday, May 17, 2016, 10:41 PM<BR><BR>#yiv6113175303<BR>#yiv6113175303
--<BR><BR>_filtered #yiv6113175303 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2
4;}<BR>_filtered #yiv6113175303 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15<BR>5 2 2 2
4 3 2 4;}<BR>_filtered #yiv6113175303 {font-family:Consolas;panose-1:2<BR>11 6
9 2 2 4 3 2 4;}<BR>_filtered #yiv6113175303 {panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
0;}<BR>#yiv6113175303 <BR>#yiv6113175303 p.yiv6113175303MsoNormal,
#yiv6113175303<BR>li.yiv6113175303MsoNormal,
#yiv6113175303<BR>div.yiv6113175303MsoNormal<BR><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;color:black;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
a:link, #yiv6113175303<BR>span.yiv6113175303MsoHyperlink<BR><SPAN
class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
a:visited, #yiv6113175303<BR>span.yiv6113175303MsoHyperlinkFollowed<BR><SPAN
class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
pre<BR><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:10.0pt;color:black;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
span.yiv6113175303HTMLPreformattedChar<BR><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{font-family:Consolas;color:black;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
span.yiv6113175303EmailStyle19<BR><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{color:windowtext;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
span.yiv6113175303EmailStyle20<BR><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{color:#1F497D;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
.yiv6113175303MsoChpDefault<BR><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{font-size:10.0pt;}<BR>_filtered
#yiv6113175303 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt<BR>72.0pt;}<BR>#yiv6113175303
div.yiv6113175303WordSection1<BR><SPAN class=Apple-tab-span
style="WHITE-SPACE: pre"></SPAN>{}<BR>#yiv6113175303 Thanks Paul<BR>Does this
in some measure explain why<BR>Kirk has been saying for years that solid fuels
cannot ever<BR>be burned cleanly enough to be used for<BR>cooking? It
remains one of the strangest<BR>positions taken in the field of cooking
stoves. It was<BR>repeated in 1999 and many times since. It has been taken
up,<BR>with polite wording, by the GACC which frequently refers to<BR>‘clean
fuels and clean cooking solutions for people who<BR>have traditionally been
forced to use solid fuels’ as if<BR>solid fuels are somehow inherently
objectionable or<BR>‘unclean’ (haram).<BR>The implication, as early on taken
by<BR>Kirk, is that solid fuels somehow contain inherent emissions<BR>that
cannot be done away with. Remember that quotation about<BR>the ‘combustion
efficiency of fuels’, by type? I think<BR>that is the root idea behind ‘clean
fuels’. There are<BR>‘dirty fuels’ and ‘clean fuels’ in that world
of<BR>thinking. There are also ‘clean stoves’ and ‘dirty<BR>stoves’ I
suppose.<BR>Picture two testing teams operating<BR>two identical stoves with
the same fuel in adjacent rooms.<BR>The results are very good – extremely low
emissions. One<BR>team announces, “We have discovered a really
clean<BR>fuel!” In the next room the other team announces, “We<BR>have
discovered a really clean stove!”<BR><BR>Obviously we have a problem
accepting<BR>either claim. Only a combination of stove and fuel is
clean,<BR>and even then, the way it is operated will still have
an<BR>influence. <BR>So what is the motivation for saying<BR>that solid fuels
cannot be burned cleanly enough to be used<BR>indoors? Why only liquid and
gaseous fuels? I reported<BR>earlier the remarkably clean burning pellet stove
made by a<BR>tiny workshop in Indonesia that has about ¼ of the
PM<BR>emissions of an LPG stove. Is an Albasia pellet a biomass<BR>fuel or a
biofuel? I think that ‘bio’ means ‘living’<BR>and that the pellets are the
product of a living source –<BR>trees. In the UK they have power stations
burning biofuels<BR>(wood pellets). Maybe they should be consulted.<BR>I agree
that the use of terms passes<BR>through fashion and whim, and it is correct
that the<BR>biofuels industry wants to be considered separately
from<BR>everything else. It is a way of hogging the subsidies, if<BR>nothing
else, with legislation requiring a certain amount of<BR>‘biofuel capacity’ to
be developed, then restricting it<BR>in a way that excludes the obvious: wood
and agricultural<BR>waste pellets. Keeps the home fires burning for liquids,
as<BR>it were. Recently I was sent a set of stove<BR>tests where the
fuel burned was money – literally. Money<BR>pellets! That’s a pretty good
idea, right? Instead of<BR>burning old money in a kiln, it is pelleted and
sold as<BR>fuel. If it is really expensive, does it qualify as a<BR>biofuel in
need of a subsidy, or is it plain old<BR>biomass? Paul, I would say that
this stoves<BR>listserve, and in no small part your efforts to
promote<BR>gasifiers, produced some of the cleanest burning stove<BR>products
ever seen. As we know, bioethanol, bioparaffin,<BR>biodiesel, bio-plant
oils, biomethanol – all can be burned<BR>cleanly under certain conditions,
meaning they are not<BR>always seen to be doing that, but they can. I hold
that the<BR>same is true for virtually all solid fuels. First they
are<BR>rendered into liquids or directly to gases, then the gases<BR>are
burned. All fires are gas fires. <BR>If we start using ‘biofuels’ only<BR>for
non-solid energy carriers, are we not defeating the<BR>cause of clean
combustion of wood and plant-based fuels?<BR>Wouldn’t that make it easier than
it is now to demonise<BR>wood the way the West has demonised coal, still
widely (and<BR>badly) burned in the East? <BR>I ask that because the
campaign<BR>against solid fuels is so unreasonable, so unscientific.<BR>Rather
than rejoicing at the discovery of new technologies<BR>and techniques that
turn easily packaged solid fuels into<BR>combustible and clean burning gas, we
observe repeated<BR>references to solid fuels being ‘not clean enough’,
or<BR>even ‘will never be clean enough’ to be used for<BR>domestic energy.
<BR>There is a new move afoot to develop<BR>another generation of coal burning
stoves in Asia, possibly<BR>two. Testing recently (since the beginning of this
year) at<BR>the BST Lab at CAU, we have seen a number of stoves that<BR>‘go
negative’ for a considerably portion of the burn<BR>time. Not as good as the
best Mongolian stoves mind you, but<BR>pretty good. Refinement will improve
these<BR>further. By ‘negative’ I mean they not<BR>only produce no PM2.5
part of the time, but they clean the<BR>air of background particles so their
net impact is negative,<BR>presuming there is something in the background to
remove.<BR>Thus I predict that within two years we will have coal<BR>burning
and wood pellet burning stoves that are overall,<BR>negative for PM2.5
emissions during the whole burn including<BR>ignition, provided there is a WHO
acceptable 50 micrograms<BR>of background PM2.5 available to clean from the
combustion<BR>air. I think that is a pretty big<BR>accomplishment and it
will owe a lot to this assemblage of<BR>stove enthusiasts when it
happens. If the term<BR>‘biofuels’ turns out to be used as a tool for
demonising<BR>solid fuels, I think we should push back, citing examples
of<BR>solid fuel combustors that match or even outperform liquid<BR>and gas
burners.<BR>RegardsCrispin<BR> Stovers,<BR><BR>The message below
from Kirk Smith's Stove<BR>List (Not StoveS, and not a ListSERV where there
is<BR>discussion) is interesting reading. <BR><BR>He is totally correct
that in America ( and<BR>probably Europe and elsewhere) the term
"Biofuels"<BR>does NOT include dry biomass. <BR><BR>American politicians
refer to "renewable<BR>energy" as solar, wind and biofuels. They
NEVER<BR>mention wood and other dry biomass for renewable energy.
<BR>But so much of our energy needs is for thermal energy, even<BR>water
heating at below boiling point.<BR><BR>Paul<BR><BR><BR>Doc /
Dr<BR>TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhDEmail: <A
href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.eduskype">psanders@ilstu.eduSkype</A>:
<BR>paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072Website: <BR><A
href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</A><BR><BR>-------- Forwarded
Message -------- Subject: [stove] 30 years went by<BR>quicklyDate: Thu, 12 May
2016 14:27:40<BR>-0700From: Reply-To: To: <BR><BR><BR>“~30th Anniversary
Edition” of<BR>Biofuels, Air Pollution and Health. <BR>Nearly 3 decades after
publication<BR>of the first and still, I believe, only book laying out
the<BR>major issues around what we now call household air<BR>pollution, it is
available for free download in pdf – see<BR>below and on my
website. It began to address most all of<BR>the issues we still
struggle with except, perhaps, the<BR>climate angle, which I am coming to
think in any case is a<BR>bit of a red herring even though we also introduced
the<BR>concept of what is now called “co-benefits” and made the<BR>first
measurements related to cookfuel/stoves in the
early<BR>1990s. Unfortunately, however, unthinking
application<BR>of climate concerns now operates as a deterrent in
some<BR>quarters to embracing truly clean cookfuel alternatives that<BR>have
so much benefit to offer the very poorest<BR>populations. Note, I have long
stopped using<BR>the term “biofuels” to mean biomass fuels, since<BR>biofuels
now have come to mean liquid and gaseous fuels made<BR>from biomass in most of
the world’s literature and<BR>media. Continued use of “biofuel” by some
in our<BR>community now serves to confuse things I am afraid: <BR>biomass fuel
is a perfectly reasonable term and nicely<BR>parallel to fossil fuel, but most
importantly we cannot<BR>fight the now widely accepted use of the term
“biofuel”,<BR>which describes fuels with entirely
different<BR>characteristics/k Modern<BR>Perspectives in Energy, (originally
published by Plenum,<BR>which was purchased by) Springer 1987, Biofuels, Air
Pollution,<BR>and Health: A Global<BR>Review, Kirk R. SmithISBN:
978-1-4612-8231-0 (Print)<BR>978-1-4613-0891-1 (Online) <A
href="http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-1-4613-0891-1">http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007%2F978-1-4613-0891-1</A>”
Kirk R. Smith, MPH, PhD <<A
href="mailto:krksmith@berkeley.edu">krksmith@berkeley.edu</A>>Professor of
Global<BR>Environmental HeathChair, Graduate Group in<BR>Environmental Health
SciencesDirector, Global Health and<BR>Environment ProgramSchool of Public
Health747 University HallUniversity of California<BR>Berkeley,
CA<BR>94720-7360510-643-0793<BR>(fax: 642-5810)<A
href="http://www.kirkrsmith.org/">http://www.kirkrsmith.org/</A> <BR>-----Inline
Attachment
Follows-----<BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the
email<BR>address<BR><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your<BR>List Settings use the web page<BR><A
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking<BR>Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR><A
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</A><BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
mailing list<BR><BR>to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<BR><A
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</A><BR><BR>to
UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV>
<P>
<HR>
_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves mailing list<BR><BR>to
Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<BR>stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
List Settings use the web
page<BR>http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org<BR><BR>for
more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web
site:<BR>http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/<BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>