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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Ronald,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I don't know why it would. Do you see
anything that it may have taken as spam? Perhaps a word that I
used. My mail program did not label it as spam when you sent it back
to me. Did this happen for anybody else?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Respectfully,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk</FONT></DIV>
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dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=rwhongser@web.de href="mailto:rwhongser@web.de">Ronald
Hongsermeier</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 30, 2016 11:10 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] stove test</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<P>kg,</P>
<P>wondering why my mail program labeled your (this) post as spam.</P>
<P>ronald von wunderbayern<BR></P><BR>
<DIV class=moz-cite-prefix>On 31.05.2016 08:07, kgharris wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE cite=mid:4DB098BE961D4C60BD8D547D2751A12C@phyllisPC type="cite">
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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Crispin,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>My original statement was to point out how
the increase in ambient room temperature had changed the turn-down
performance of the stove. This is an important topic if the stove
principles are going to have any effect in hot tropical countries. If
you can comment on this I would be happy to learn from your experience, but
please stop hijacking my posts and misdirecting attention to cater to your
agenda against the current test methods. Start your own thread if that
is what you want to talk about.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>All,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>I will be happy to answer questions about
the burning abilities and tecniques of our stove and
combustor.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=crispinpigott@outlook.com href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com"
moz-do-not-send="true">Crispin Pemberton-Pigott</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, May 30, 2016 9:40
PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] stove
test</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=WordSection1>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Dear
Kirk<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> With the support
of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we) have developed a very good,
clean burning TLUD-ND. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">I
think you have done exactly that. Good on you.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">There
is no misdirection at all here. You are past the verge of changing the
stove’s superior performance in order to get a better rating on an invalid
metric. It is that simple. Don’t get sucked into that trap. When you are
getting results as good as you are, there are new opportunities to go
wrong. <O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
only ‘misdirection’ has been supplied for years by test methods that
guided people to edit their stoves to meet spurious requirements that did
not bear directly on performance, or worse, actually penalised stoves for
their superior performance. A good example is
attached.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">This
is not something new in the stove community. Here is a quote from the
attached Aprovecho document from 2003:<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">“Why
was the good advice, by established experts in the field, represented in
the VITA International Standard test, the result of several well funded
international conferences, obscure in 2003? Both the Indian and Chinese
governments developed tests of their own widening the scope of PHU to
include power, rate of evaporation, time. Visser (2003) published a
version of a water boiling test based on efficiency and appropriate power
for boiling and simmering. What motivated this parallel activity? Why
isn’t the VITA test in more general use?”<O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">One
reason the VITA test was not more popular was it had several conceptual
errors and a few really poor metrics that gave mis-directing outputs. One
is the efficiency of simmering, another is the concept of specific fuel
consumption for simmering. Another was the idea of an ‘average
efficiency’ meaning an ‘average thermal efficiency’. I believe from my
research that the specific fuel consumption for simmering and the average
efficiency were both introduced by Baldwin in 1986 or so, before his book
came out. Neither are acceptable metrics.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
document refers to the VITA test the ‘international standard’ which is not
supported by the evidence. Three or four minor parties agreed to it and it
was never used by the major markets in India and China. Even Eindhoven
University didn’t use it and they were a party to drafting it. India
pretty much adopted the minority position taken by KK Prasad from
Eindhoven and built that into their 1991 test. The Chinese test from that
era was very similar. India, interestingly, produced a list of 28 standard
sizes of cooking pot which is a record, I believe!<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The
long-forgotten organisation Bois de Feu had a clear understanding of these
issues and had a test method in 1982 that didn’t have these problems. They
treated the simmering phase very carefully (and differently). Prasad (and
Visser who was his student) developed multiple test methods over the
years. Piet Visser and I created one in Malawi in about 2007 which later
evolved into the ProBEC Test for heat transfer efficiency which is now a
SeTAR SOP, currently v1.05 (SeTAR is an independently managed continuation
of the 13 year long GIZ/ProBEC project). It doesn’t really predict
performance, it gives a real-time heat transfer efficiency report under
varying conditions. It is very easy to perform and it supports
pot-swapping, similar to the Indian protocol.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">So,
ladies and gentlemen, there are no Tier 4 stoves. That achievement will
have to wait for the development of appropriate, valid low power metrics
and one will need an equipment set capable of quantifying the
result.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Kirk:
don’t be bamboozled. You are doing good work. Nothing is perfectly
correct. Independent investigation of truth is still
required.<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Best
wishes<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt; mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Crispin<O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">All,</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">With the support
of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we) have developed a very good,
clean burning TLUD-ND. This is real and proven and no amount of
misdirection can change that. It will be at Aprovecho for stove
camp for all to examine, and I will be giving a presentation on how
it burns so clean.</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Respectfully,</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kirk</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><O:P></O:P></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Santa Rosa, CA.
USA</SPAN><O:P></O:P></P></DIV></DIV>
<P></P>
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