<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>kg,</p>
<p>wondering why my mail program labeled your (this) post as spam.</p>
<p>ronald von wunderbayern<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 31.05.2016 08:07, kgharris wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:4DB098BE961D4C60BD8D547D2751A12C@phyllisPC"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 9.00.8112.16781">
<style>@font-face {
font-family: Cambria Math;
}
@font-face {
font-family: Calibri;
}
@page WordSection1 {size: 612.0pt 792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt; }
P.MsoNormal {
MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman",serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt
}
LI.MsoNormal {
MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman",serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt
}
DIV.MsoNormal {
MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman",serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt
}
A:link {
COLOR: #0563c1; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlink {
COLOR: #0563c1; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
A:visited {
COLOR: #954f72; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.MsoHyperlinkFollowed {
COLOR: #954f72; TEXT-DECORATION: underline; mso-style-priority: 99
}
SPAN.EmailStyle17 {
FONT-FAMILY: "Calibri",sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; mso-style-type: personal-reply
}
.MsoChpDefault {
FONT-SIZE: 10pt; mso-style-type: export-only
}
DIV.WordSection1 {
page: WordSection1
}
</style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Crispin,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">My original statement was to
point out how the increase in ambient room temperature had
changed the turn-down performance of the stove. This is an
important topic if the stove principles are going to have any
effect in hot tropical countries. If you can comment on this
I would be happy to learn from your experience, but please
stop hijacking my posts and misdirecting attention to cater to
your agenda against the current test methods. Start your own
thread if that is what you want to talk about.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">All,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">I will be happy to answer
questions about the burning abilities and tecniques of our
stove and combustor.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kirk</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="crispinpigott@outlook.com"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 30, 2016
9:40 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] stove
test</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="WordSection1">
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Dear Kirk<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">></span><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually
we) have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">I think you have done exactly
that. Good on you.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">There is no misdirection at
all here. You are past the verge of changing the stove’s
superior performance in order to get a better rating on an
invalid metric. It is that simple. Don’t get sucked into
that trap. When you are getting results as good as you
are, there are new opportunities to go wrong. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The only ‘misdirection’ has
been supplied for years by test methods that guided people
to edit their stoves to meet spurious requirements that
did not bear directly on performance, or worse, actually
penalised stoves for their superior performance. A good
example is attached.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">This is not something new in
the stove community. Here is a quote from the attached
Aprovecho document from 2003:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">“Why was the good advice,
by established experts in the field, represented in the
VITA International Standard test, the result of several
well funded international conferences, obscure in 2003?
Both the Indian and Chinese governments developed tests
of their own widening the scope of PHU to include power,
rate of evaporation, time. Visser (2003) published a
version of a water boiling test based on efficiency and
appropriate power for boiling and simmering. What
motivated this parallel activity? Why isn’t the VITA
test in more general use?”<o:p></o:p></span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">One reason the VITA test was
not more popular was it had several conceptual errors and
a few really poor metrics that gave mis-directing outputs.
One is the efficiency of simmering, another is the concept
of specific fuel consumption for simmering. Another was
the idea of an ‘average efficiency’ meaning an ‘average
thermal efficiency’. I believe from my research that the
specific fuel consumption for simmering and the average
efficiency were both introduced by Baldwin in 1986 or so,
before his book came out. Neither are acceptable metrics.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The document refers to the
VITA test the ‘international standard’ which is not
supported by the evidence. Three or four minor parties
agreed to it and it was never used by the major markets in
India and China. Even Eindhoven University didn’t use it
and they were a party to drafting it. India pretty much
adopted the minority position taken by KK Prasad from
Eindhoven and built that into their 1991 test. The Chinese
test from that era was very similar. India, interestingly,
produced a list of 28 standard sizes of cooking pot which
is a record, I believe!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">The long-forgotten
organisation Bois de Feu had a clear understanding of
these issues and had a test method in 1982 that didn’t
have these problems. They treated the simmering phase very
carefully (and differently). Prasad (and Visser who was
his student) developed multiple test methods over the
years. Piet Visser and I created one in Malawi in about
2007 which later evolved into the ProBEC Test for heat
transfer efficiency which is now a SeTAR SOP, currently
v1.05 (SeTAR is an independently managed continuation of
the 13 year long GIZ/ProBEC project). It doesn’t really
predict performance, it gives a real-time heat transfer
efficiency report under varying conditions. It is very
easy to perform and it supports pot-swapping, similar to
the Indian protocol.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">So, ladies and gentlemen,
there are no Tier 4 stoves. That achievement will have to
wait for the development of appropriate, valid low power
metrics and one will need an equipment set capable of
quantifying the result.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Kirk: don’t be bamboozled.
You are doing good work. Nothing is perfectly correct.
Independent investigation of truth is still required.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Best wishes<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt;
mso-fareast-language: EN-US">Crispin<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Calibri',sans-serif; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">All,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">With the support of
Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we) have
developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND. This is
real and proven and no amount of misdirection can change
that. It will be at Aprovecho for stove camp for all to
examine, and I will be giving a presentation on how it
burns so clean.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Respectfully,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Kirk</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> <o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY:
'Arial',sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Santa Rosa, CA. USA</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<hr> _______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
web site:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<p> </p>
<hr>
<p color="#000000" avgcert??="" align="left">No virus found in
this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2016.0.7598 / Virus Database: 4591/12332 - Release
Date: 05/31/16</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>