<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=windows-1252"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Hi Teddy,</p>
<p>I live in Germany but go to Kenya every year. With a Kenyan
friend, I founded the "Mount Kenya Integrated Community
Development Organisation" in the Eastern Mount Kenya region in
2009. The "basket cookers" are made by some of the women members
as an income-generating project. They are the ones who sell them
and also teach other women how to make them. The basket cookers
are a great energy-saving device when it comes to cooking beans,
sweet potatoes or cassava (overnight!) or keeping water hot for
bathing. <br>
</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Ingelore<br>
</p>
<br>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">Am 31.05.2016 um 19:02 schrieb
Cookswell Jikos:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:CAA-40HKAexbd12K3TcLCjY=chXBj15NeoBsMKxonfovD8XuG-A@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Ingelore,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for that feedback, where in Kenya are you? We tried
stocking them at two different outlets of ours a few years ago
and we only managed to sell one or two if I remember
correctly. The main complaint was the ugali issue. What and
how do you market yours differently? I really like the
insulated cookers myself and use one occasionally and home
with good results for beans. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks, </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Teddy <br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div class="gmail_signature" data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>Cookswell Jikos</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke" target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos"
target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com"
target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br>
</div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div>
<div>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div>
<div><img moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mFnK50B4oS8/UUrgJle8z9I/AAAAAAAAB_o/OUjLd7wrKPg/s133/Cookswell+Logo.PNG"
height="96" width="71"><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Tms Rmn" color="#008000">Save trees -
think twice before printing</font><font face="Tms Rmn"
color="#008000" size="1">.</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 7:26 PM,
Ingelore Kahrens <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:tutaonana@onlinehome.de" target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:tutaonana@onlinehome.de">tutaonana@onlinehome.de</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<p>Hello all,</p>
<p>I have been following your discussions for some time
with great interest. And I would like to add my
experiences with retained-heat cookers.In our
organization in Kenya we promote them along with
improved stoves and solar box cookers. Women make the
retained-heat cookers with baskets and like them very
much. As far as your opinion about cooking ugali in
these basket cookers is concerned, I have to object
seriously. You start cooking the ugali on a fire and as
soon as it is hot you transfer it to a basket cooker.
The finished product is very tasty. This is what the
women we have worked with have confirmed. Besides, the
same holds for solar-cooked ugali.</p>
<p>Cheers,</p>
<p>Ingelore Kahrens<br>
</p>
<div>
<div class="h5"> <br>
<div>Am 31.05.2016 um 17:15 schrieb Cookswell Jikos:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Dear Kirk -
<div><br>
</div>
<div>''<span style="font-family:Arial">Dieter has
brought up the concept of retained heat
cooking in an insulated container. Would
anybody even need turn-down in a cook stove?
Is retained heat cooking the better solution,
or is it good to have both?'' </span></div>
<div><span style="font-family:Arial"><br>
</span></div>
<div><font face="Arial">I think it would very much
depend on what is being cooked and in what
type of kitchen setting. If this question of
ambient air temperature has more
than noticeable effects on the
stove performance, then it is something I
imagine a cook would approve or disapprove of
and that can make or break a sale (or a 'user'
using in the case of a free stove).</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Say you sell the same
stove to be used in an igloo as for a maasai
manyatta...would your customer notice any
differences that would affect the quality of
making dinner etc.? Retained heat works for
some foods, but for staples like fufu, (sima
or ugali) that need to be boiled, and then
vigorously stirred and then simmered it gets
tricky as does stir-frying.</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">There is (a simmering?)
demand in Kenya for simmering cookstoves in
SME settings, the popular one right now is a
smokey sawdust stove that is basically a
metal cylinder with a door tube that you pack
with saw dust around two glass bottles stacked
like a rocket stove - you then remove the
bottles and fill with firewood and light the
bottom side. This lets the water boil on the
firewood phase and then the slow burn of the
saw dust keeps the water simmering. They are
used by 1000's of small eatery joints around
Kenya for keeping goats head soup warm and
also keeping ugali (like polenta) warm wrapped
in polythene plastic bags! </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">I would like to know more
about all these different tests Crispin
mentions - how many cookstove tests are there
in total? Between the VITA the ProBEC and the
StarSOP, who uses which tests...do the various
Govts. and Donors agree on one test for the
most part? I do suppose though that given the
phenomenal variations in global cooking and
fuel type that an equally complex set of
testing procedures would be needed. My
only concern is how does the end user of the
stove make use of this information in their
day to day life? Do any of them provide for a
simple energy star style of rating for ease of
laymans understanding? What would the 'stars'
be for,
emissions, efficiency, durability, safety? </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Many thanks, <br>
<br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">Teddy </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">On post note: </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial">In regards to cooking in
igloos - Wiki says a <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudlik#/media/File:Qulliq_1999-04-01.jpg"
target="_blank">Quilliq</a> is used to burn
seal or whale fat...I wonder what tier these
would fall under? But could lard as a cooking
energy source though? Would it count as
biomass? We once tried to make a jiko with Dad
that used the falling fat from the goat ribs
to flare up with enough heat to cook another
set of ribs...but they were so tasty we never
managed to finish the experiment ;) </font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial"><br>
</font></div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all">
<div>
<div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr">
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b><br>
</b></div>
<div><b>Cookswell Jikos</b><br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke"
target="_blank">www.cookswell.co.ke</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos"
target="_blank">www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com"
target="_blank">www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</a></div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <br>
</div>
<div>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</div>
<div>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</div>
<div><img moz-do-not-send="true"
src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mFnK50B4oS8/UUrgJle8z9I/AAAAAAAAB_o/OUjLd7wrKPg/s133/Cookswell+Logo.PNG"
height="96" width="71"><br>
</div>
<div><font face="Tms Rmn" color="#008000">Save
trees - think twice before printing</font><font
face="Tms Rmn" color="#008000" size="1">.</font><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, May 31, 2016 at
11:34 AM, kgharris <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net">kgharris@sonic.net</a></a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc
solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div bgcolor="white" vlink="#954f72"
link="#0563c1" lang="EN-ZA">
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Prof Lloyd,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">This is
great! The heat loss from the pot is
less because the room temperature is
higher. Thus I can't keep the water
temperature down. I will definately
think this one through and try some
experiments.</font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dieter has
brought up the concept of retained heat
cooking in an insulated container.
Would anybody even need turn-down in a
cook stove? Is retained heat cooking
the better solution, or is it good to
have both?</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank You,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kirk</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT:#000000 2px
solid;PADDING-LEFT:5px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px"
dir="ltr"><span>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial">-----
Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt
arial;BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"><b>From:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="plloyd@mweb.co.za"
href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za"
target="_blank">Philip Lloyd</a> </div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>To:</b>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">'Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves'</a> </div>
</span>
<div>
<div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b>
Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:59 AM</div>
<div style="FONT:10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b>
Re: [Stoves] Effect of ambient
temperature on stove testing at
lowpower</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Dear
Kirk</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">I
have lurked during this
discussion – forgive me for
entering it now.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">You
believed “the increase in
ambient room temperature had
changed the turn-down
performance of the stove.” </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">You
may have been mistaken. I think
what happened was that the
ambient room temperature changed
the measurement you were
attempting to make. At the
higher ambient temperature there
was less rate of heat loss from
the cooking pot, so it took less
fuel to keep it hot and the
turndown ratio – as you define
it – changed. So the problem may
lie with your definition of the
turndown ratio. I use the
minimal sustainable firepower,
determined from the rate of fuel
feed which just keeps the fire
going, as my lower measure, and
the maximum firepower I can
achieve without significant
oxygen starvation as the upper
one, and have yet to see the
sort of effect of ambient
temperature on the ratio of the
upper to the lower that you
report with your definition of
the ratio.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">In
a word, you may be picking up a
change in the heat transfer from
the pot as the ambient
temperature changes, rather than
anything fundamental about the
stove performance.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">I
hope that suggestion assists.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Kind
regards</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Prof
Philip Lloyd</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Energy
Institute, CPUT</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">SARETEC,
Sachs Circle</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Bellville</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Tel
021 959 4323</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">Cell
083 441 5247</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt">PA
Nadia 021 959 4330</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"> </span></p>
<div>
<div style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium
none;BORDER-LEFT:medium
none;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;PADDING-LEFT:0cm;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm;BORDER-TOP:#b5c4df
1pt solid;BORDER-RIGHT:medium
none;PADDING-TOP:3pt">
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-US">From:</span></b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Tahoma','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN-US">
Stoves [mailto:<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</a></a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>kgharris<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May
31, 2016 8:08 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
stove test</span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"> </p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">Crispin,</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">My original
statement was to point out how
the increase in ambient room
temperature had changed the
turn-down performance of the
stove. This is an important
topic if the stove principles
are going to have any effect
in hot tropical countries. If
you can comment on this I
would be happy to learn from
your experience, but please
stop hijacking my posts and
misdirecting attention to
cater to your agenda against
the current test methods.
Start your own thread if that
is what you want to talk
about.</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">All,</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">I will be happy
to answer questions about
the burning abilities and
tecniques of our stove and
combustor.</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">Kirk</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote
style="BORDER-BOTTOM:medium
none;BORDER-LEFT:black 1.5pt
solid;PADDING-BOTTOM:0cm;MARGIN:5pt
0cm 5pt
3.75pt;PADDING-LEFT:4pt;PADDING-RIGHT:0cm;BORDER-TOP:medium
none;BORDER-RIGHT:medium
none;PADDING-TOP:0cm">
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">----- Original
Message ----- </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p style="BACKGROUND:#e4e4e4"
class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">From:</span></b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN-CA"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="crispinpigott@outlook.com"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target="_blank">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</a> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">To:</span></b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN-CA"> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">'Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves'</a>
</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">Sent:</span></b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN-CA">
Monday, May 30, 2016 9:40 PM</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">Subject:</span></b><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN-CA">
Re: [Stoves] stove test</span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">Dear Kirk</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">></span><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt" lang="EN-CA">
With the support of Aprovecho
Research Center, I (actually
we) have developed a very
good, clean burning TLUD-ND. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">I think you have
done exactly that. Good on
you.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">There is no
misdirection at all here. You
are past the verge of changing
the stove’s superior
performance in order to get a
better rating on an invalid
metric. It is that simple.
Don’t get sucked into that
trap. When you are getting
results as good as you are,
there are new opportunities to
go wrong. </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">The only
‘misdirection’ has been
supplied for years by test
methods that guided people to
edit their stoves to meet
spurious requirements that did
not bear directly on
performance, or worse,
actually penalised stoves for
their superior performance. A
good example is attached.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">This is not
something new in the stove
community. Here is a quote
from the attached Aprovecho
document from 2003:</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><i><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">“Why was the
good advice, by established
experts in the field,
represented in the VITA
International Standard test,
the result of several well
funded international
conferences, obscure in
2003? Both the Indian and
Chinese governments
developed tests of their own
widening the scope of PHU to
include power, rate of
evaporation, time. Visser
(2003) published a version
of a water boiling test
based on efficiency and
appropriate power for
boiling and simmering. What
motivated this parallel
activity? Why isn’t the VITA
test in more general use?”</span></i></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">One reason the
VITA test was not more popular
was it had several conceptual
errors and a few really poor
metrics that gave
mis-directing outputs. One is
the efficiency of simmering,
another is the concept of
specific fuel consumption for
simmering. Another was the
idea of an ‘average
efficiency’ meaning an
‘average thermal efficiency’.
I believe from my research
that the specific fuel
consumption for simmering and
the average efficiency were
both introduced by Baldwin in
1986 or so, before his book
came out. Neither are
acceptable metrics.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">The document
refers to the VITA test the
‘international standard’ which
is not supported by the
evidence. Three or four minor
parties agreed to it and it
was never used by the major
markets in India and China.
Even Eindhoven University
didn’t use it and they were a
party to drafting it. India
pretty much adopted the
minority position taken by KK
Prasad from Eindhoven and
built that into their 1991
test. The Chinese test from
that era was very similar.
India, interestingly, produced
a list of 28 standard sizes of
cooking pot which is a record,
I believe!</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">The
long-forgotten organisation
Bois de Feu had a clear
understanding of these issues
and had a test method in 1982
that didn’t have these
problems. They treated the
simmering phase very carefully
(and differently). Prasad (and
Visser who was his student)
developed multiple test
methods over the years. Piet
Visser and I created one in
Malawi in about 2007 which
later evolved into the ProBEC
Test for heat transfer
efficiency which is now a
SeTAR SOP, currently v1.05
(SeTAR is an independently
managed continuation of the 13
year long GIZ/ProBEC project).
It doesn’t really predict
performance, it gives a
real-time heat transfer
efficiency report under
varying conditions. It is very
easy to perform and it
supports pot-swapping, similar
to the Indian protocol.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">So, ladies and
gentlemen, there are no Tier 4
stoves. That achievement will
have to wait for the
development of appropriate,
valid low power metrics and
one will need an equipment set
capable of quantifying the
result.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">Kirk: don’t be
bamboozled. You are doing good
work. Nothing is perfectly
correct. Independent
investigation of truth is
still required.</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">Best wishes</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA">Crispin</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Calibri','sans-serif';COLOR:#1f497d;FONT-SIZE:11pt"
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">All,</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">With the
support of Aprovecho
Research Center, I (actually
we) have developed a very
good, clean burning
TLUD-ND. This is real and
proven and no amount of
misdirection can change
that. It will be at
Aprovecho for stove camp for
all to examine, and I will
be giving a presentation on
how it burns so clean.</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">Respectfully,</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">Kirk</span><span
lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA"> </span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY:'Arial','sans-serif';FONT-SIZE:10pt"
lang="EN-CA">Santa Rosa, CA.
USA</span><span lang="EN-CA"></span></p>
</div>
<div style="TEXT-ALIGN:center"
class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span
lang="EN-CA">
<hr align="center" size="2"
width="100%"> </span></div>
<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM:12pt"
class="MsoNormal"><span
lang="EN-CA">_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list,
use the email address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your
List Settings use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking
Stoves, News and Information
see our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a></span></p>
<div style="TEXT-ALIGN:center"
class="MsoNormal" align="center"><span
lang="EN-CA">
<hr align="center" size="2"
width="100%"> </span></div>
<p><span lang="EN-CA">No virus
found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a></a><br>
Version: 2016.0.7598 / Virus
Database: 4591/12332 - Release
Date: 05/31/16</span></p>
</blockquote>
</div>
<p> </p>
<hr>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the
email address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List
Settings use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News
and Information see our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<p> </p>
<hr>
<p color="#000000" align="left">No
virus found in this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com"
target="_blank"><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a></a><br>
Version: 2016.0.7598 / Virus
Database: 4591/12332 - Release Date:
05/31/16</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email
address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings
use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and
Information see our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset></fieldset>
<br>
<pre>_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see
our web site:<br>
<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/" rel="noreferrer"
target="_blank">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<br>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
</div>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>