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Kirk,<br>
<br>
You wrote:
<blockquote type="cite"><font face="Arial" size="2">The one
advantage for simmering on the stove is that it is
quicker. Would it be good for the cook to have the option, or
is retained heat enough? </font></blockquote>
It is only quicker than a retained heat cooker to the extent that
the on-fire simmering keeps the contents of the pot a few (maximum
of 6) degrees hotter than the food would be inside a pot in a
retained heat cooker. At that stage of cooking, what is important
is the amount of TIME that the food is maintained at the simmer
temperature (maxium is 100 C, but allowed in the stove testing to
drop a maximum of 6 C below the local boiling temperature). A
Retained heat cooker that is well sealed can hold that simmer
temperature for 45 minutes easily, and even for several hours.<br>
<br>
I am following the discussion of your very valuable innovations, and
look forward to seeing you and the stove at Stove Camp at Aprovecho
on 15 - 19 August (with the Char Production Gathering on 19 - 20
August also at Apro.).<br>
<br>
I do agree with Crispin's point that you should not be altering your
stove in any attempt to "improve" the Tier level for LOW power
operations. <br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 5/31/2016 3:10 AM, kgharris wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:E6087EBE896B48C9B07EB4055D7A022F@phyllisPC"
type="cite">
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<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dieter,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your well
considered response. This is a good point, that simmering on
the stove heats the room. Retained heat cooking avoids this
and uses less fuel in the process. The one advantage for
simmering on the stove is that it is quicker. Would it be
good for the cook to have the option, or is retained heat
enough? </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">One interesting thing about
our design is that the element that gives the good turn-down
(the spider looking thing that hangs below the combustor) also
helps to give the clean burn at both high and low power. It
is a good mixer for the fuel and air.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Thank you for your input. It
gives me thought about what direction to take.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Respectfully,</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kirk</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="doseifert@googlemail.com"
href="mailto:doseifert@googlemail.com">Dr.-Ing. Dieter
Seifert</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 30, 2016
11:54 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves] stove
test</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">
<p style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt
274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt
595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE"
lang="EN-US">Dear Kirk,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt
274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt
595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE"
lang="EN-US">It may be helpful to make a simple
thermodynamic consideration about cooking in rooms,
showing that the whole thermal energy produced by the
stove will be delivered to the room (partly with a time
delay). So, if one cooks beans for 3 or 4 hours, this will
heat the room in this time. If technology of cooking with
retained heat is used, heating will occur only in the
short heat-up time, the rest is done without any burden.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt
274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt
595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE"
lang="EN-US">Kind regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p style="tab-stops: 45.8pt 91.6pt 137.4pt 183.2pt 229.0pt
274.8pt 320.6pt 366.4pt 412.2pt 458.0pt 503.8pt 549.6pt
595.4pt 641.2pt 687.0pt 732.8pt" class="MsoNormal"><span
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Courier New'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt;
mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman';
mso-ansi-language: EN-US; mso-fareast-language: DE"
lang="EN-US">Dieter<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<br>
<br>
Am 31.05.2016 um 08:07 schrieb kgharris:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:4DB098BE961D4C60BD8D547D2751A12C@phyllisPC"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Crispin,
My original statement was to point out how the increase in ambient room temperature had changed the turn-down performance of the stove. This is an important topic if the stove principles are going to have any effect in hot tropical countries. If you can comment on this I would be happy to learn from your experience, but please stop hijacking my posts and misdirecting attention to cater to your agenda against the current test methods. Start your own thread if that is what you want to talk about.
All,
I will be happy to answer questions about the burning abilities and tecniques of our stove and combustor.
Kirk
----- Original Message -----
From: Crispin Pemberton-Pigott
To: 'Discussion of biomass cooking stoves'
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2016 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Stoves] stove test
Dear Kirk
> With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we) have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND.
I think you have done exactly that. Good on you.
There is no misdirection at all here. You are past the verge of changing the stove's superior performance in order to get a better rating on an invalid metric. It is that simple. Don't get sucked into that trap. When you are getting results as good as you are, there are new opportunities to go wrong.
The only 'misdirection' has been supplied for years by test methods that guided people to edit their stoves to meet spurious requirements that did not bear directly on performance, or worse, actually penalised stoves for their superior performance. A good example is attached.
This is not something new in the stove community. Here is a quote from the attached Aprovecho document from 2003:
"Why was the good advice, by established experts in the field, represented in the VITA International Standard test, the result of several well funded international conferences, obscure in 2003? Both the Indian and Chinese governments developed tests of their own widening the scope of PHU to include power, rate of evaporation, time. Visser (2003) published a version of a water boiling test based on efficiency and appropriate power for boiling and simmering. What motivated this parallel activity? Why isn't the VITA test in more general use?"
One reason the VITA test was not more popular was it had several conceptual errors and a few really poor metrics that gave mis-directing outputs. One is the efficiency of simmering, another is the concept of specific fuel consumption for simmering. Another was the idea of an 'average efficiency' meaning an 'average thermal efficiency'. I believe from my research that the specific fuel consumption for simmering and the average efficiency were both introduced by Baldwin in 1986 or so, before his book came out. Neither are acceptable metrics.
The document refers to the VITA test the 'international standard' which is not supported by the evidence. Three or four minor parties agreed to it and it was never used by the major markets in India and China. Even Eindhoven University didn't use it and they were a party to drafting it. India pretty much adopted the minority position taken by KK Prasad from Eindhoven and built that into their 1991 test. The Chinese test from that era was very similar. India, interestingly, produced a list of 28 standard sizes of cooking pot which is a record, I believe!
The long-forgotten organisation Bois de Feu had a clear understanding of these issues and had a test method in 1982 that didn't have these problems. They treated the simmering phase very carefully (and differently). Prasad (and Visser who was his student) developed multiple test methods over the years. Piet Visser and I created one in Malawi in about 2007 which later evolved into the ProBEC Test for heat transfer efficiency which is now a SeTAR SOP, currently v1.05 (SeTAR is an independently managed continuation of the 13 year long GIZ/ProBEC project). It doesn't really predict performance, it gives a real-time heat transfer efficiency report under varying conditions. It is very easy to perform and it supports pot-swapping, similar to the Indian protocol.
So, ladies and gentlemen, there are no Tier 4 stoves. That achievement will have to wait for the development of appropriate, valid low power metrics and one will need an equipment set capable of quantifying the result.
Kirk: don't be bamboozled. You are doing good work. Nothing is perfectly correct. Independent investigation of truth is still required.
Best wishes
Crispin
All,
With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we) have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND. This is real and proven and no amount of misdirection can change that. It will be at Aprovecho for stove camp for all to examine, and I will be giving a presentation on how it burns so clean.
Respectfully,
Kirk
Santa Rosa, CA. USA
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