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<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Cookswell,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Dear
Kirk - <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office"
/><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">''</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Dieter
has brought up the concept of retained heat cooking in an insulated container.
Would anybody even need turn-down in a cook stove? Is retained heat cooking the
better solution, or is it good to have both?'' </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I
think it would very much depend on what is being cooked and in what type of
kitchen setting. If this question of ambient air temperature has more than
noticeable effects on the stove performance, then it is something I imagine a
cook would approve or disapprove of and that can make or break a sale (or a
'user' using in the case of a free stove).<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">These
are some good points, turn-down capability may make the sale.<SPAN
style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The cook may never use it but knows that
it is available.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Someone heating up
just enough water for tea or lunch for one won’t need a 5kw flame. Dean
Still at Aprovecho has talked about having two simple TLUDs, a large one and a
small one (both tier 4 performers) sold together. This is also a
good option, and would give two burners for more cooking
options.</SPAN></U></I></B></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Say
you sell the same stove to be used in an igloo as for a maasai manyatta...would
your customer notice any differences that would affect the quality of making
dinner etc.? Retained heat works for some foods, but for staples like fufu,
(sima or ugali) that need to be boiled, and then vigorously stirred and then
simmered it gets tricky as does stir-frying.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I
see what you mean.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Food which needs
attention while simmering might need a low flame.</SPAN></U></I></B><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></U></I></B></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">There
is (a simmering?) demand in Kenya for simmering cookstoves in SME settings, the
popular one right now is a smokey sawdust stove that is basically a metal
cylinder with a door tube that you pack with saw dust around two glass bottles
stacked like a rocket stove - you then remove the bottles and fill with firewood
and light the bottom side. This lets the water boil on the firewood phase and
then the slow burn of the saw dust keeps the water simmering. They are used by
1000's of small eatery joints around Kenya for keeping goats head soup warm and
also keeping ugali (like polenta) warm wrapped in polythene plastic
bags!<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">This
is clever and sounds useful.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>To bad
it is smoky.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></U></I></B></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I
would like to know more about all these different tests Crispin mentions - how
many cookstove tests are there in total? Between the VITA the ProBEC and the
StarSOP, who uses which tests...do the various Govts. and Donors agree on one
test for the most part? I do suppose though that given the phenomenal variations
in global cooking and fuel type that an equally complex set of testing
procedures would be needed. My only concern is how does the end user of the
stove make use of this information in their day to day life? Do any of them
provide for a simple energy star style of rating for ease of laymans
understanding? What would the 'stars' be for, emissions, efficiency, durability,
safety? <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">I
can’t help with the tests.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I like
the idea of stars for performance in a way that is easy for the user to
understand.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></SPAN></U></I></B><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></U></I></B></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Many
thanks, </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Teddy
</SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">On
post note: </SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">In
regards to cooking in igloos - Wiki says a <A
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudlik#/media/File:Qulliq_1999-04-01.jpg"><SPAN
style="COLOR: blue">Quilliq</SPAN></A> is used to burn seal or whale fat...I
wonder what tier these would fall under? But could lard as a cooking energy
source though? Would it count as biomass? We once tried to make a jiko with Dad
that used the falling fat from the goat ribs to flare up with enough heat to
cook another set of ribs...but they were so tasty we never managed to finish the
experiment ;) <o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Thanks.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></U></I></B></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><o:p><SPAN
style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"> </SPAN></o:p></SPAN></U></I></B></P>
<P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" class=MsoNormal><B
style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><I
style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><U><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'">Kirk
H.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></U></I></B></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT
face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color: black"><B>From:</B>
<A title=cookswelljikos@gmail.com
href="mailto:cookswelljikos@gmail.com">Cookswell Jikos</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Discussion of biomass cooking
stoves</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 31, 2016 8:15 AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Effect of ambient
temperature on stove testing atlowpower</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>Dear Kirk -
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>''<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Dieter has brought up the concept of
retained heat cooking in an insulated container. Would anybody even need
turn-down in a cook stove? Is retained heat cooking the better solution,
or is it good to have both?'' </SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Arial"><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I think it would very much depend on what is being
cooked and in what type of kitchen setting. If this question of ambient
air temperature has more than noticeable effects on the
stove performance, then it is something I imagine a cook would approve
or disapprove of and that can make or break a sale (or a 'user'
using in the case of a free stove).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Say you sell the same stove to be used in an igloo as
for a maasai manyatta...would your customer notice any differences that
would affect the quality of making dinner etc.? Retained heat works
for some foods, but for staples like fufu, (sima or ugali) that need to be
boiled, and then vigorously stirred and then simmered it gets tricky
as does stir-frying.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>There is (a simmering?) demand in Kenya for simmering
cookstoves in SME settings, the popular one right now is a smokey sawdust
stove that is basically a metal cylinder with a door tube that you
pack with saw dust around two glass bottles stacked like a rocket stove - you
then remove the bottles and fill with firewood and light the bottom side.
This lets the water boil on the firewood phase and then the slow burn of the
saw dust keeps the water simmering. They are used by 1000's of small eatery
joints around Kenya for keeping goats head soup warm and also keeping ugali
(like polenta) warm wrapped in polythene plastic
bags! </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I would like to know more about all these different
tests Crispin mentions - how many cookstove tests are there in total?
Between the VITA the ProBEC and the StarSOP, who uses which tests...do the
various Govts. and Donors agree on one test for the most part? I do suppose
though that given the phenomenal variations in global cooking and fuel
type that an equally complex set of testing procedures would be
needed. My only concern is how does the end user of the stove make
use of this information in their day to day life? Do any of them provide for a
simple energy star style of rating for ease of laymans
understanding? What would the 'stars' be for,
emissions, efficiency, durability, safety? </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Many thanks, <BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Teddy </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>On post note: </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>In regards to cooking in igloos - Wiki says a <A
href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kudlik#/media/File:Qulliq_1999-04-01.jpg">Quilliq</A>
is used to burn seal or whale fat...I wonder what tier these would fall under?
But could lard as a cooking energy source though? Would it count as biomass?
We once tried to make a jiko with Dad that used the falling fat from the goat
ribs to flare up with enough heat to cook another set of ribs...but they were
so tasty we never managed to finish the experiment ;) </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Thanks,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Kirk H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><B><BR></B> </DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_extra>
<DIV>
<DIV class=gmail_signature data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV><B>Cookswell Jikos</B><BR><A href="http://www.cookswell.co.ke"
target=_blank>www.cookswell.co.ke</A></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos"
target=_blank>www.facebook.com/CookswellJikos</A></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com"
target=_blank>www.kenyacharcoal.blogspot.com</A></DIV>
<DIV>Mobile: +254 700 380 009 <BR></DIV>
<DIV>Mobile: +254 700 905 913</DIV>
<DIV>P.O. Box 1433, Nairobi 00606, Kenya</DIV>
<DIV><IMG
src="https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-mFnK50B4oS8/UUrgJle8z9I/AAAAAAAAB_o/OUjLd7wrKPg/s133/Cookswell+Logo.PNG"
width=71 height=96><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#008000 face="Tms Rmn">Save trees - think twice before
printing</FONT><FONT color=#008000 size=1 face="Tms Rmn">.</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR><BR><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>On Tue, May 31, 2016 at 11:34 AM, kgharris <SPAN
dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:kgharris@sonic.net"
target=_blank>kgharris@sonic.net</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; PADDING-LEFT: 1ex"
class=gmail_quote><U></U>
<DIV lang=EN-ZA link="#0563c1" vlink="#954f72" bgcolor="white">
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Prof Lloyd,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>This is great! The heat loss from the pot
is less because the room temperature is higher. Thus I can't keep the
water temperature down. I will definately think this one through and
try some experiments.</FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Dieter has brought up the concept of retained
heat cooking in an insulated container. Would anybody even need
turn-down in a cook stove? Is retained heat cooking the better
solution, or is it good to have both?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Thank You,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial>Kirk</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir=ltr><SPAN>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A
title=plloyd@mweb.co.za href="mailto:plloyd@mweb.co.za"
target=_blank>Philip Lloyd</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A
title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>'Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves'</A> </DIV></SPAN>
<DIV>
<DIV class=h5>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 31, 2016 12:59
AM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] Effect of
ambient temperature on stove testing at lowpower</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Dear
Kirk<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
have lurked during this discussion – forgive me for entering it
now.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">You
believed “the increase in ambient room temperature had changed the
turn-down performance of the stove.” <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">You
may have been mistaken. I think what happened was that the ambient room
temperature changed the measurement you were attempting to make. At
the higher ambient temperature there was less rate of heat loss from the
cooking pot, so it took less fuel to keep it hot and the turndown ratio –
as you define it – changed. So the problem may lie with your definition of
the turndown ratio. I use the minimal sustainable firepower,
determined from the rate of fuel feed which just keeps the fire going, as
my lower measure, and the maximum firepower I can achieve without
significant oxygen starvation as the upper one, and have yet to see the
sort of effect of ambient temperature on the ratio of the upper to the
lower that you report with your definition of the
ratio.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">In
a word, you may be picking up a change in the heat transfer from the pot
as the ambient temperature changes, rather than anything fundamental about
the stove performance.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">I
hope that suggestion assists.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Kind
regards<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Prof
Philip Lloyd<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Energy
Institute, CPUT<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">SARETEC,
Sachs Circle<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Bellville<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Tel
021 959 4323<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">Cell
083 441 5247<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">PA
Nadia 021 959 4330<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<DIV
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; PADDING-LEFT: 0cm; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: #b5c4df 1pt solid; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt">
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-US>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-US>
Stoves [mailto:<A href="mailto:stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org"
target=_blank>stoves-bounces@lists.bioenergylists.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of
</B>kgharris<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, May 31, 2016 8:08 AM<BR><B>To:</B>
Discussion of biomass cooking stoves<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Stoves] stove
test<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><U></U><U></U> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>Crispin,</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>My
original statement was to point out how the increase in ambient room
temperature had changed the turn-down performance of the stove. This
is an important topic if the stove principles are going to have any effect
in hot tropical countries. If you can comment on this I would be
happy to learn from your experience, but please stop hijacking my posts
and misdirecting attention to cater to your agenda against the current
test methods. Start your own thread if that is what you want to talk
about.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>All,</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>I
will be happy to answer questions about the burning abilities and
tecniques of our stove and combustor.</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>Kirk</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: black 1.5pt solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; MARGIN: 5pt 0cm 5pt 3.75pt; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; PADDING-RIGHT: 0cm; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-TOP: 0cm">
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>----- Original Message ----- <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4" class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>From:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>
<A title=crispinpigott@outlook.com
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com" target=_blank>Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</A> <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>To:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>
<A title=stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target=_blank>'Discussion
of biomass cooking stoves'</A> <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>Sent:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>
Monday, May 30, 2016 9:40 PM<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>Subject:</SPAN></B><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>
Re: [Stoves] stove test<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>Dear Kirk<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>></SPAN><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt" lang=EN-CA>
With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually we) have
developed a very good, clean burning
TLUD-ND. <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>I think you have done exactly that. Good on
you.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>There is no misdirection at all here. You are past the verge
of changing the stove’s superior performance in order to get a better
rating on an invalid metric. It is that simple. Don’t get sucked into
that trap. When you are getting results as good as you are, there are
new opportunities to go wrong. <U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>The only ‘misdirection’ has been supplied for years by test
methods that guided people to edit their stoves to meet spurious
requirements that did not bear directly on performance, or worse,
actually penalised stoves for their superior performance. A good
example is attached.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>This is not something new in the stove community. Here is a
quote from the attached Aprovecho document from
2003:<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><I><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>“Why was the good advice, by established experts in the
field, represented in the VITA International Standard test, the result
of several well funded international conferences, obscure in 2003? Both
the Indian and Chinese governments developed tests of their own widening
the scope of PHU to include power, rate of evaporation, time. Visser
(2003) published a version of a water boiling test based on efficiency
and appropriate power for boiling and simmering. What motivated this
parallel activity? Why isn’t the VITA test in more general
use?”<U></U><U></U></SPAN></I></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>One reason the VITA test was not more popular was it had
several conceptual errors and a few really poor metrics that gave
mis-directing outputs. One is the efficiency of simmering, another is
the concept of specific fuel consumption for simmering. Another
was the idea of an ‘average efficiency’ meaning an ‘average thermal
efficiency’. I believe from my research that the specific fuel
consumption for simmering and the average efficiency were both
introduced by Baldwin in 1986 or so, before his book came out. Neither
are acceptable metrics.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>The document refers to the VITA test the ‘international
standard’ which is not supported by the evidence. Three or four minor
parties agreed to it and it was never used by the major markets in India
and China. Even Eindhoven University didn’t use it and they were a party
to drafting it. India pretty much adopted the minority position taken by
KK Prasad from Eindhoven and built that into their 1991 test. The
Chinese test from that era was very similar. India, interestingly,
produced a list of 28 standard sizes of cooking pot which is a record, I
believe!<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>The long-forgotten organisation Bois de Feu had a clear
understanding of these issues and had a test method in 1982 that didn’t
have these problems. They treated the simmering phase very carefully
(and differently). Prasad (and Visser who was his student) developed
multiple test methods over the years. Piet Visser and I created one in
Malawi in about 2007 which later evolved into the ProBEC Test for heat
transfer efficiency which is now a SeTAR SOP, currently v1.05 (SeTAR is
an independently managed continuation of the 13 year long GIZ/ProBEC
project). It doesn’t really predict performance, it gives a real-time
heat transfer efficiency report under varying conditions. It is very
easy to perform and it supports pot-swapping, similar to the Indian
protocol.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>So, ladies and gentlemen, there are no Tier 4 stoves. That
achievement will have to wait for the development of appropriate, valid
low power metrics and one will need an equipment set capable of
quantifying the result.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>Kirk: don’t be bamboozled. You are doing good work.
Nothing is perfectly correct. Independent investigation of truth is
still required.<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>Best wishes<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA>Crispin<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri','sans-serif'; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt"
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>All,</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>With the support of Aprovecho Research Center, I (actually
we) have developed a very good, clean burning TLUD-ND. This is
real and proven and no amount of misdirection can change
that. It will be at Aprovecho for stove camp for all to examine,
and I will be giving a presentation on how it burns so
clean.</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>Respectfully,</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>Kirk</SPAN><SPAN lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN> </P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=MsoNormal><SPAN
style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 10pt"
lang=EN-CA>Santa Rosa, CA. USA</SPAN><SPAN
lang=EN-CA><U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></DIV>
<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
lang=EN-CA>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class=MsoNormal><SPAN
lang=EN-CA>_______________________________________________<BR>Stoves
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<DIV style="TEXT-ALIGN: center" class=MsoNormal align=center><SPAN
lang=EN-CA>
<HR align=center SIZE=2 width="100%">
</SPAN></DIV>
<P><SPAN lang=EN-CA>No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked by AVG -
<A href="http://www.avg.com" target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version:
2016.0.7598 / Virus Database: 4591/12332 - Release Date:
05/31/16<U></U><U></U></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>
<P></P>
<HR>
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<P></P>
<HR>
<P></P><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000">No virus found in this message.<BR>Checked
by AVG - <A href="http://www.avg.com"
target=_blank>www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2016.0.7598 / Virus Database:
4591/12332 - Release Date: 05/31/16</P>
<P></P>
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<P>
<HR>
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<P>
<HR>
<P></P><A></A>
<P align=left color="#000000" avgcert??>No virus found in this
message.<BR>Checked by AVG - <A
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</A><BR>Version: 2016.0.7598 / Virus
Database: 4591/12342 - Release Date: 06/01/16</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>