<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
Kirk and Crispin,<br>
<br>
I BELIEVE I understand Crispin's question of "How is the 6 kW power
measured?"<br>
<br>
I think the answer is that it is based on the amount of energy
released in the measured time to bring the water to boil (that being
the high power time-period, but the calculation has nothing to do
with the increase in water temperature. And that the energy
measurement is based on the energy of the weighed fuel (adjusted for
moisture content), and giving "credit" for the energy that is in the
remaining charcoal.<br>
<br>
Does that make sense? <br>
<br>
Kirk and Aprovecho testing personnel: Is that correct?<br>
<br>
Crispin: Were you expecting some other answer? What other way
might be used?<br>
<br>
The Kirk Harris Wonderwerk TLUD stove with Strata combustor will
certainly be a featured item at the 5-day Stove Camp on 15 - 19
August at Aprovecho. Even if you cannot attend, you can give inputs
and questions to Kirk (and to other attendees) via this Stoves
Listserv.<br>
<br>
Comment: Kirk points out that this is a research device. And that
actual manufacturing with his advances is something that needs
additional discussion and work. THIS issue of how to put it into
production will be an important topic at Stove Camp and here on the
Listserv.<br>
<br>
Paul<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/7/2016 11:38 PM, kgharris wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote cite="mid:906EC89DD32343BE999BC82706F81E53@phyllisPC"
type="cite">
<meta content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" http-equiv="Content-Type">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="MSHTML 9.00.8112.16781">
<div>All,</div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Our test stove has a power level
of 1.6 to 6 kw. What ever cooking arrangment is placed on top
of that will have its own characteristics. The power level
experienced by the cook will depend on these characteristics,
and no doubt each arrangment will be different from the test
stove. Each of these arrangments is valid for the cooking
techniques to be used. </font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">If anyone is interested in a very
low emissions, clean TLUD-ND with turn-down, then take a look
at our test stove. The principles may work for you. Test
results have been presented on the list twice.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">The stove will be at Aprovecho
during stove camp in August for all to examine. We will be
there to answer questions about how it works and to give
demonstrations showing both low emissions and turn-down. Come
and see for yourself. The updated Aprovecho booklet will be
available soon.</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Kirk H.</font></div>
<blockquote style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT:
5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; font-color:
black"><b>From:</b> <a moz-do-not-send="true"
title="crispinpigott@outlook.com"
href="mailto:crispinpigott@outlook.com">Crispin
Pemberton-Pigott</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>To:</b> <a
moz-do-not-send="true"
title="stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org"
href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">Stoves</a> </div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, June 07,
2016 7:26 PM</div>
<div style="FONT: 10pt arial"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Stoves]
kgharris stove test</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)">Dear Kirk</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><br>
</div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Thanks for those perspectives. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>From your last message:</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>>The power level is 1.6 kw to
6kw with c</span><span>ushion on each end. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Do you know how these figures
were obtained? </span><span>You mentioned that the mass
change was noted every 5 minutes. It that the root of the
number?</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>You also mentioned that the high
power during the test was about 3.75 kW (?) if I recall
near enough. </span><span>Was this established in the same
manner as the 6 kW or was it taken from the WBT spreadsheet?</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>I would like to understand how
they were determined so as to compare them with future
reports. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>From the low power test result
there should also have been a power (average power) from the
spreadsheet. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>></span><span>What ever
cooking arrangment design you use is up to </span><span>you
and heat flux will change accordingly. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Thanks for the message on the
side that the pot was 24.4 cm in diameter. As you have a
skirt on the pot the 'heated surface area' is larger than
the bottom's 467.6 cm^2. How high is the skirt, or more
exactly, how high is the portion of the pot that is enclosed
by the skirt when it is sitting on the stove (the skirt
might descend below the bottom of the pot).</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>For the calculation of the high
power heat flux we will need to know the rate of heat gain,
either the peak or the average. If you don't have any
intermediate temperature readings that's not a problem. We
can use the total heat gained by the pot during the hot
start and the duration in seconds to get an average heat
gain rate. That, divided by the heated area, gives the heat
gained per sq cm. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>If you remove the skirt, that
value will change. Your comment about people not using the
skirt is relevant. If we are sure some people will not use
it, then knowing the performance in both conditions would be
helpful. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>In the Indonesian CSI pilot there
was a stove submitted with a skirt. It tested well and was
moved to the focus group testing. The skirt was so
inconvenient to use that it was rejected so the stove had to
be re-evaluated without it to get a new rating as the
subsidy level offered to the vendors is based on its
performance. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>The drop in performance without
the skirt was statistically significant so the subsidy level
changed. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>If you have the WBT test
spreadsheet the heat flux values can be calculated for both
high and low power. They are based only on the pot size and
the energy gained and have nothing to do with the fire.
That is an important point. The number represents the
cooking power experienced by the cook. It can be obtained
easily in the field with little equipment. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>>If the people in Java can use
a </span><span>stove with 1.6 to 6 kw, and can use that heat
effectively, then the power </span><span>level is adequate
for Java or anywhere else. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Well therein lies the problem.
The firepower is not the cooking power and without the
cooking power number, we don't know in advance if they will
accept it or not. If we factor out the pot size (really,
the heated area) we get a cooking power per sq cm [Watts].
That can be applied across all pots, or certainly all
similar pots so we can estimate acceptance based on social
science surveys indicating acceptable performance. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Because the acceptable high and
low power heat flux is culturally determined, and varies
from place to place, the metric has a special relevance for
programme implementation agents. We would like to know in
advance what people expect and what a candidate stove can
offer. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>To sum up I repeat the three most
important questions:</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>How was the 6 kW determined?</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>What is the heated area of the
pot?</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>What was the average cooking
power?</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>The last number is available from
the numerator of the efficiency calculation cell for any
test phase - just delete the denominator portion of the
formula and instead divide by elapsed time in seconds. The
answer is in Watts. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Usually the Hot Start phase will
yield the highest value. </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Thanks</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span>Crispin </span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span><br>
</span></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); WIDTH: 100%;
FONT-FAMILY: Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif;
COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><span></span><span><br>
</span></div>
<style>.EmailQuote {
BORDER-LEFT: #800000 2px solid; PADDING-LEFT: 4pt; MARGIN-LEFT: 1pt
}
</style>
<p> </p>
<hr> _______________________________________________<br>
Stoves mailing list<br>
<br>
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a><br>
<br>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our
web site:<br>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a><br>
<br>
<p> </p>
<hr>
<p color="#000000" avgcert??="" align="left">No virus found in
this message.<br>
Checked by AVG - <a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.avg.com">www.avg.com</a><br>
Version: 2016.0.7639 / Virus Database: 4598/12379 - Release
Date: 06/07/16</p>
</blockquote>
<br>
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
<br>
<pre wrap="">_______________________________________________
Stoves mailing list
to Send a Message to the list, use the email address
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org">stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
to UNSUBSCRIBE or Change your List Settings use the web page
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org">http://lists.bioenergylists.org/mailman/listinfo/stoves_lists.bioenergylists.org</a>
for more Biomass Cooking Stoves, News and Information see our web site:
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/">http://stoves.bioenergylists.org/</a>
</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
</body>
</html>