<div dir="ltr"><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">This is Nikhil Desai, with a delayed response. I wanted to rename this thread as "Subsidies", reflecting the specific issues raised by Lange and Pemberton-Pigott, but am keeping the same name for now. Another post separately. If any response on subsidies comes along, we should put these in the new thread.<br>------</p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span style="font-size:10pt">I am excited to hear from Lange, "each
home improved costs about $100." It's not clear to me if this is the
entire cost including overheads or the portion absorbed by Lange’s group (the rest by the
customer). Either way, this is about the level of minimum capital expenditure for
“basic energy” for poor households who do not have grid or LPG access.</span><br></p><p></p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">It is also gratifying to learn that Lange’s
group has combined both lighting and cooking interventions.
With biomass stoves, presumably the ongoing expense on woodfuel or
battery/bulb change is minor. If the solar products and stoves last five years,
presumably the gains in “quality of life” improve productivity and raise the
willingness to pay for replacement. <br>
<br>
More importantly, he uses “improved homes”, not “improved stoves”, a rather
overused and abused term just like GACC’s “clean cookstoves”. There is much
more to cooking than “clean”, and shelter design, family composition,
alternative uses of time, all affect cooking and lighting. The basic rationale
for technological advancements in cooking and electricity (battery or grid) is
for “improved homes,” broadly envisaged by the customers themselves, and the
corresponding indirect </span><span lang="EN-US" style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">effect
on human productivities. With transition to modern energy use, whether or not
from “renewables”, people rise from poverty over the course of a generation.
And pay taxes or do charity</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:10pt">for the remaining poor.</span><br>
<br><span style="font-size:10pt">Depending on what governments can afford,
people aspire to, and local market conditions, a $100/household/year energy
subsidy to qualified customers for qualified products is worth
considering. I drafted a proposal along
these lines for India a few years ago. </span><br><br>I suggest not taking GACC statements on "market" seriously. We know next to nothing about poor people's fuel and electricity markets. Why, there was a startling story in the Times of India a couple of days ago that rural inflation is led by increase in the prices of dungcakes, fuelwood and chips. So much for the “free biomass” fiction. Maybe the inflation is temporary, because of unusual weather patterns or climate change. Or maybe now customers will choose “more efficient biomass stoves”. Or the government here will be further pushed to accelerate distribution of subsidized LPG.<br><br>---------------</span></p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">I also agree with Lange –
the talk of “</span><span lang="EN-US">"creating dependence" or
"undermining sustainability" is nonsense masquerading as economic
smarts. Governments are in the business of raising and spending money; whether
some of it takes the form of “subsidies” is a matter of political choice.<br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">"Subsidies for the rich, market
fundamentalism for the poor" is a common perversity of presumptuous - or presumptive - economists. I can understand the
resistance to creating dependency syndrome or concern about sustainability
without subsidies. After all, spending other people's money entails fiduciary
responsibility and ethical consideration weigh in on the most effective
application of personal charity.</span></span></p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US">
<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">There are many ways to subsidize - what, how
much, when, why. With biomass stoves, the sheer diversity, uncertain metrics,
and unpredictable demands and cost structures for cooking (i.e., fuels) make it
difficult to specify subsidy assigned to a stove. On the other hand,
stove-makers or sellers can be subsidized, and if it is feasible to subsidize
special processed biomass fuels, that should also be considered. Such
stove/fuel subsidies may not help the poorest directly, but other support
mechanisms</span></span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"> </span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">can
be considered. </span></p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:10pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:small;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">If
GACC by "market based" means ruling out subsidies altogether, there
are two ways of interpreting that stand:</span><span lang="EN-US" style="font-size:small"> </span><br></span></p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><span lang="EN-US"><span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">a) GACC has no standing in energy policy and
public budgeting discussions; it is understandably modest in not advocating
subsidies and is staying out of the kitchen, so to speak (as it should).</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-repeat:initial">b) GACC is hypocritical, since it survives on
public and charity money in the first place. (These are not subsidies,
just payment for services, as with the research establishment that has taken a lion's share of US support to "clean cooking.") Rich experts living on public funds in the name of the world's poor should be accountable for something. <br><br></span></span></p><div></div><p></p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt">Nikhil</p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt"><br> </p><p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:georgia,serif">
---------</span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif"></span></p>
<p style="margin-bottom:0.0001pt;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial"><span style="font-size:7.5pt;font-family:georgia,serif">(India +91) 909 995 2080</span><span style="font-size:10pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif"> </span><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:arial,sans-serif">----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2016 13:51:04 -0500</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">From: Paul Anderson <</span></span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">To:
Stoves and biofuels network <</span></span><a href="mailto:Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Stoves@lists.bioenergylists.org</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">>,</span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
"</span></span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">biochar@yahoogroups.com</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">" <</span><a href="mailto:biochar@yahoogroups.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">biochar@yahoogroups.com</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Subject:
[Stoves] Fwd: business sickness</span><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Message-ID:
<</span></span><a href="mailto:0ddf2a16-23e6-5245-1fa8-3c5164c2b7f2@ilstu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">0ddf2a16-23e6-5245-1fa8-3c5164c2b7f2@ilstu.edu</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">></span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Content-Type:
text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Subject:
business sickness</span><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Date:
Sun, 03 Jul 2016 09:27:07 -0400</span><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">From:
>Lange <</span></span><a href="mailto:rbtvl@aol.com" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">rbtvl@aol.com</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">To:
</span></span><a href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">psanders@ilstu.edu</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">Message: </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">No, you
are not wrong about business sickness.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">powerful
institutions and governments are quick to subsidize corporations with loan
guarantees, tax breaks, initial investments that need not be repaid etc.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">
but if you want to help consumers with a subsidy you are "creating
dependence" or "undermining sustainability". such
nonsense.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">we have a
wonderful stove. we have 100% sustained adoption. we have 250 women doing
stove installations. I am trying to re-design to get production
cost down. now.....$45 for the full stove and another $15 to the
women who install it. too much for poor Maasai women to pay.
so we help them and charge them less. we also do solar electrical
work and help women start businesses so we are not just stove people.
and with overheads, each home improved costs about $100.</span><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">please see</span><br>
<br>
</span><a href="http://www.internationalcollaborative.org/" target="_blank"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">www.internationalcollaborative.org</span></a><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif"><br>
<br>
<span style="background-image:initial;background-repeat:initial">I sat
with Radha of the Global Alliance a few years ago and said.</span><br></span><br>"a billions women can't afford the stove they need.<br>we have three choices.<br>we can leave them out<br>we can sell them a stove they can afford that they will abandon<br>we can subsidize their purchase.<br><br>we choose to subsicize their purchase."<br><br> <br><br> she said essentially that the Global alliance had to establish itself as "market based" and then maybe we can talk later.<br><br>our organization in the US and Tanzania might finally, after six years, get the government to work with us. they love what we do. but getting them to help fund is not so easy.<br><br>but we try. and maybe will succeed<br><br>bob lange <a href="tel:508%20735%209176" value="+15087359176" target="_blank">508 735 9176</a><br>the Maasai Stoves and Solar Project.<br>the ICSEE<br clear="all"></p><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>---------</span></div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px">(India +91) 909 995 2080</span><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><br>
</div>