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Dear all,<br>
<br>
I totally agree with Ron's message below about needing to ask the
right questions.<br>
<br>
Asking our target (needy, impoverished, etc.) people what they would
want in a stove sounds logical, but would they "imagine" asking for
stoves that make char, or use small wood, or have a rather constant
flame for 40 minutes and longer? Maybe. But probably not.<br>
<br>
Back in the 1980s, when personal computers were just getting started
(Apple IIe, MS-DOS, etc), if you had asked educated Americans what
they wanted for personal communications, they would NOT have
answered with words like wireless internet on handheld small phones
that take pictures, send text messages, and do Google searches.
Dick Tracy's two-way wrist radio was still futuristic. Should Jobs
and Gates and others have been told to just give the people what
they ask for? Improved products virtually REQUIRE someone to bring
the new things to the masses. Are the masses ready for the new
items? <br>
<br>
Paul (what is below is a bit off topic, but you might find it
interesting. More important to read Ron's questions in his message
below mine.)<br>
<br>
In college I seriously considered majoring in anthropology
(simplistic definition is studying the way people/societies are) but
rejected it because I wanted to help people gain improvements,
essentially changing their lives (I hoped for changes for the
better), not staying as they are. <br>
<br>
By the way, I also rejected majoring in business because too often
profit motives are too dominant and self-serving. I also rejected
careers in social work, medicine, military (3 yrs in Army), and
religious ministry. I ended up as a univ. professor for 30 years.<br>
<br>
Do not misunderstand me. ALL those careers are and can be very
worthy. And preserving the status quo or making only small changes
MIGHT be better than major changes, sometimes. <br>
<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">Doc / Dr TLUD / Prof. Paul S. Anderson, PhD
Email: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:psanders@ilstu.edu">psanders@ilstu.edu</a>
Skype: paultlud Phone: +1-309-452-7072
Website: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.drtlud.com">www.drtlud.com</a></pre>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 8/29/2016 10:15 PM, Ronal W. Larson
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:F2DEF28B-EE2C-436F-9BFF-8EB75CF3A03D@comcast.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div class="">Cecil, Nikhil, list et al:</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>This
is the first time I have understood Cecil’s interview
methodology, where he says below his (and Crispin’s) method was:
“..<span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; font-size: initial;
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"
class=""><i class="">to minimally tweak </i></span></div>
<div class=""><span style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; font-size:
initial; text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255,
255);" class=""><i class="">traditional stoves</i></span><span
style="color: rgb(31, 73, 125); font-family: Calibri, 'Slate
Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; font-size: initial; text-align:
initial; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""> ..</span><font
class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif"
color="#1f497d" size="3">” This obviously is biased against
TLUDs and charcoal - making. I contend this also
underestimates the intelligence and desires of the rural cook.</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I
wonder if any other person doing stove questionnaires or knows
of their existence has ever seen one that asked any question
pertinent to TLUDs? Examples of questions I would like to see
asked (and never have seen) are:</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><br class="">
</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1.
Would you consider a stove that could be paid off in months
from the charcoal you could make with it?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2.
How would you rank the importance of using a stove that you
could leave unattended for an hour?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3.
Would you consider buying a stove that could use very small
pieces of fuel?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>4.
Would a stove that helped address global warming be important
to you?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>5.
Would you consider a stove whose charcoal output could
possibly double the productivity of your garden?</font></div>
<div class=""><font class="" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif,
sans-serif" color="#1f497d" size="3"><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></font></div>
<div class="">I assume questions are regularly asked about
emissions - so TLUDs might have a small consumer advantage
there. But one would have to know the relative advantage - such
as asking about a biomass cook stove that could be cleaner than
a kerosene stove. I doubt such health-related questions have
been asked.</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So
I ask Cecil (who I have known for decades) if he has ever asked
any stove questions like these above - or ever seen any such?
What answers would he expect? What would Nikhil (who I have
also communicated with decades ago) think would be the answers?</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class="">Ron</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span></div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div class=""><br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
<div>
<blockquote type="cite" class="">
<div class="">On Aug 29, 2016, at 11:46 AM, <a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:cec1863@gmail.com"
class="">cec1863@gmail.com</a> wrote:</div>
<br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
<div class="">
<div style="background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);
line-height: initial;" class="" lang="en-US">
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Greetings Traveller aka
Nikhil,</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Thank you for your
swashbuckling frankness about the fundamental
foolishness of expecting abstract ISO standards,
metrics, and household stove performance tests to lead
the stovers and stove producers of the planet into a
paradise of smokeless pollution free biomass cooking and
space heating.</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">From where I sit on the
sidelines these days I see a tragic perversion of the
potential for a holistic "science" of small household
stoves by many different competing commercial,
professional political, gender and lifestyle interest
groups. We are forced to fight the battle of armgeddon
simply to decide what parameters and assessment
methodologies can be trusted to guide the development of
simple $10 improved stoves for the 1/3 of humankind at
the bottom of the world scrum. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">My question is how do we
generate a respectful conversations between the various
role players involved in the scrum to innovate, produce
and promote user friendly and responsive improved
household stoves that are affordable and can
successfully compete for market share without any
subsidy. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">That means the end of
outsourcing to China and the end of imported stoves
selling for ± $100 with or without carbon credits when
there are locally made stoves being produced,
distributed and sold for under $5 by traditional
artisans. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">I am a backslid
(defrocked) anthropologist so the first thing I do is
investigate the already institutionalized stove
technologies and all of the stove management and fuel
use 'culture' which surrounds the TECHNOS with what used
to be called "ethno-science". The mrta-culture between
the stove and the plasma of knowledge and symbols might
be referred to as the human factors which mediate the
relationship between stove users and their stoves. OK.
That is where I choose to start. Other professional
stovers have other skills, interests and points of
intervention. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">My contribution to a
hopefully respectful conversation with fellow stovers is
informed by decades of AT based self help develop
projects in South Africa. My bottom up development
process was guided and informed by my effort to answer
this question: how do we collaborate with partners and
potential beneficiaries so as to get the greatest
possible benefits for the largest number with the
smallest possible intervention and at the smallest
possible cost per brnefit/beneficiary????</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Unfortunately, the thrust
of BIG AID and BIG DEVELOPMENT agencies (remember Big
Nurse in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest?) is to
massively intervene from the top down and in the process
massively disrupt the traditional stove/fuel/pot/kitchen
layout/producer/</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">marketing "system". It is
worth pointing out that there is an indigenous
stove/fuel culture and economy in place that has been
cooking food, heating homes, making and selling stoves,
and supplying fuel for many generations.</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">I only have one simple
suggestion about a possible master strategy: slow and
steady change strategy will radically out perform the
massive disruption strategy that is favored by Big
Development. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">Crispin and I combined to
propose and demonstrate the feasibility of a stove
improvement develpment process in Mongolia and Java that
involved using stove science to minimally tweak
traditional stoves so that their emission and efficiency
performance eventually approaches the high stardards of
an EPA approved clean cookstove. </div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class="">IMO such high standards
are bureaucratic impositions that needlessly disempower
the stakeholers and role players in traditional <span
style="font-size: initial; line-height: initial;
text-align: initial;" class="">stove/fuel/producer
systems. </span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size:
initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"
class=""><br class="">
</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><span style="font-size:
initial; line-height: initial; text-align: initial;"
class="">For me as a old man observing the counter
productivity of the stove wars in places like Sudan
and many other places in Africa, Asia and the Pacific.
If we are to make real progress in the small
stove/biomass fuel economy it is necessary for all
role players to take deep breaths, cool off,
depoliticize, speak kindly to colleagues, and grow the
common ground that unites us all in our quest for an
infinite series of apprpriate "good" little cooking
and heating stoves.</span></div>
<div style="width: 100%; font-size: initial; font-family:
Calibri, 'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color:
rgb(31, 73, 125); text-align: initial; background-color:
rgb(255, 255, 255);" class=""><br class="">
</div>
<div style="font-size: initial; font-family: Calibri,
'Slate Pro', sans-serif, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73,
125); text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);" class="">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.</div>
<table style="background-color:white;border-spacing:0px;"
class="" width="100%">
<tbody class="">
<tr class="">
<td colspan="2" style="font-size: initial;
text-align: initial; background-color: rgb(255,
255, 255);" class="">
<div style="border-style: solid none none;
border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223);
border-top-width: 1pt; padding: 3pt 0in 0in;
font-family: Tahoma, 'BB Alpha Sans', 'Slate
Pro'; font-size: 10pt;" class="">
<div class=""><b class="">From: </b>Traveller</div>
<div class=""><b class="">Sent: </b>Monday,
August 29, 2016 10:13 AM</div>
<div class=""><b class="">To: </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net" class="">neiltm@uwclub.net</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Reply To: </b><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" class="">miata98@gmail.com</a></div>
<div class=""><b class="">Cc: </b>Discussion of
biomass cooking stoves</div>
<div class=""><b class="">Subject: </b>Re:
[Stoves] forced draft (Re: A Karve 13 August)</div>
</div>
</td>
</tr>
</tbody>
</table>
<br class="">
<div id="_originalContent" style="" class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">Neil: <br class="">
<br class="">
Thank you. I learned a little about biochar from a
"stover" friend, guru from decades ago - Stephen
Joseph - back in 2008 but then lost track. I am glad
to read from you that there are consumer products now
that you consider "So versatile". <br class="">
<br class="">
It is a gross error to ignore versatility and
flexibility, and buy into the USEPA propaganda of
Water Boiling Tests. GACC could be a Faustian Bargain.
Except perhaps to those who pay the Clinton Foundation
to play at the gala performances of WJC and HRC. <br
class="">
<br class="">
I wonder if WHO Is fooling EPA - that its IAQ
guideline is to be taken as Moses' Fifteenth
Commandment (all others can be ignored, just like
WHO's OAQ guideline is) - of EPA is fooling WHO - that
its ratings based on a silly test protocol for
emission rates and area modeling will somehow
translate into mass acceptance and reduction in
premature mortality. (There will always be premature
mortality; the GBD people will find something else to
blame it on, for example boredom with academia.)<br
class="">
<br class="">
Versatile. Durable. What a breath of fresh air,
compared to the intellectual smoke of Washington, DC.
<br class="">
<br class="">
If we are to continue this "cobenefits" paradigm - the
pretension of saving trees, lives, and climate - we
might as well add in the co-benefits of biochar, and
assign value to customer satisfaction. The customer is
sovereign, not the expert class engaged in mutual
back-scratching. <br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
Nikhil<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
<br class="">
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br class="" clear="all">
<div class="">
<div class="gmail_signature"
data-smartmail="gmail_signature">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class="">
<div class="">
<div dir="ltr" class=""><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"
class=""><br class="">
---------</span></div>
<div dir="ltr" class=""><span
style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"
class="">(India +91) 909 995 2080</span><br
class="">
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br class="">
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 5:56
AM, <span dir="ltr" class=""><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net" target="_blank"
class="">neiltm@uwclub.net</a>></span> wrote:<br
class="">
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span
class="">On 19 Aug 2016 at 19:25, Traveller
wrote:<br class="">
<br class="">
> I remembered how some charcoal fires used
to be run with a hand<br class="">
> blower. I found a modern version on
Amazon.in, here<br class="">
</span>> <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.amazon.in/Grill-Blower-Charcoal-Grills-Fireplaces/dp/B011"
rel="noreferrer" target="_blank" class="">http://www.amazon.in/Grill-<wbr
class="">Blower-Charcoal-Grills-<wbr class="">Fireplaces/dp/B011</a><br
class="">
> 7F268 0><br class="">
<br class="">
These can sometimes be purchased for as little as
one GB pound in pound<br class="">
shops in the UK (and a little more on ebay), and
are excellent for<br class="">
starting or reviving volcano kettles when there is
no wind and/or<br class="">
reluctant fuel, or for reviving a TLUD which has
gone out, by simply<br class="">
blasting it into the top until the flame rekindles
well enough to<br class="">
sustain, or less urgently applying it gently to
the bottom outside<br class="">
airholes which can help a flagging NDTLUD revive
sometimes. I use it as<br class="">
an occasional 'rescue' in other words. Sustained
use of it would be<br class="">
tedious as well as occupying both hands. They
seem surprisingly durable<br class="">
as well. I've had the same one for years.<br
class="">
<br class="">
Just cooked a nice omelette on one of the Chinese
NTLUDs using very fine<br class="">
dry wood chip - almost chain saw sawdust size.
This restricts the<br class="">
primary air nicely for a lengthy sustained
moderate heat, but there is no<br class="">
possibility to add fuel at the end of the batch to
keep it going, yet<br class="">
even such micro char successfully fuels our BBQ.
Using much larger fuel<br class="">
allows for indefinite burn time whether beginning
the burn as a TLUD or<br class="">
not. So versatile these stoves. Much as I
enjoyed the Reed fan woodgas<br class="">
campstoves, I no longer take them on trips now,
but still use them<br class="">
occasionally at home.<br class="">
<br class="">
Neil Taylor<br class="">
</blockquote>
</div>
<br class="">
</div>
<br class="">
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