<div dir="ltr"><div dir="auto"><div>Moderator: I changed the subject line. <br><br>Ron:</div><div><br>Thank you for indulging me. I wonder if I thoroughly lost you with my blabber on "leading questions". I learnt the term in drafting legal testimonies, but the issue is also relevant to survey design. See <a href="http://survey.cvent.com/blog/market-research-design-tips-2/survey-design-pitfalls-leading-questions-and-loaded-words">http://survey.cvent.com/blog/market-research-design-tips-2/survey-design-pitfalls-leading-questions-and-loaded-words</a>. <br><br>The real question is, who is the survey for and what are you trying to sell? <br><br>Seeking convenient answers is a human weakness; pollsters do it all the time. No sin, just possibly an error. <br><br>Product design and testing, marketing, selling, providing after-sales service and taking care of both legal and illegal risks, is a serious business. Even some parts of academia deal with it. <br><br>But it seems we have an overabundance of scientism - unwarranted beliefs in unscientific assertions just because they are uttered by bureaucratic scientists (I trust ExxonMobil scientists more than USEPA scientists, but you probably know that already) - and under-enthusiastic customer base. This is ok, even normal, but not when 50 years of selling to donor bureaucrats has produced repeated failures, <br><br>Oh, well. We sell best what we are good at - promises - to our eager customer base - ideologues of environmentalism. From saving trees to lives to climate, we latch on to the fad of the decade. (I have done that too, so please don't take this personally.) <br><br>Today we seek to satisfy the priests of USEPA/GACC cult via catechism of Protocols of Water Boiling Tests in Laboratories. Tomorrow we could write a White Paper on Biomass Stoves and Planetary Health. (You see, Lancet would publish anything, so long as enough heads nod. Look up its reports of Commission on Climate Change or Commission on Planetary Health.) Why, in five years you and I could prepare a Progress Report on Biomass Stoves' Contribution to Sustainable Development Goals of 2035. With enough money, I could even write a paper that developing countries' transition to cooking with electricity from modern coal-fired plants (with USEPA-approved BACTs) reduces the chance of sea level rise by 22 cm in 2200. <br><br>I wish I led a cult too. I wouldn't hesitate a bit in writing, "TLUD stoves save trees, grow bigger gardens, reduce global warming, and make cooks happier and richer." I could cite customer surveys in support. Convenient facts always trounce inconvenient truths. Just need to ask the right leading questions; there are suckers eager to be misled. </div><div><br>Just about as scientific as the Global Burden of Disease report - with assignation of a single cause of death to some 50+ million deaths a year, whether or not what doctors' certificates exist and what they say, then concocting allocation of premature mortality to diseases and risk factors - but we would need another Bill and Melinda, at least another Harvard. <br><br>And certainly more scientific than the USEPA/GACC technique of predicting exposures, disease and death from lab tests of boiling water on the one hand and pretentious accuracy of "relative risk" predicted from, well, questionable surveys, dubious sampling, meta-analysis and all that academic jazz. </div><div><br></div><div>But I digress. Back to TLUD. </div><div><br></div><div>I have already said I know nothing about TLUD or for that matter design of biomass stoves. I wish any seller success so long as the buyer is a happier cook. </div><div><br></div><div>And I don't mean cooks of fancy feasts of self-righteousness for the rich donors with rich theories. </div><div><br></div><div>Who is your customer? What is your service standard? What is the objective? I raised those questions the very first post this time around, and I haven't heard a thing from anybody. </div><div><br></div><div>Whose problem - and what problem - is sought to be solved, by whom and why?</div><div><br></div><div>On that some other time. You asked me to revise your questions, not raise my questions. </div><div><br></div><div>Let me state questions I would like to be asked as a buyer of any stove-fuel technology. I resent having to answer questions in order to make some donor and his research consultants happy, but I know we all have to serve our ladies and lords. </div><div><br></div><div>And if you have to sell to governments like our Chaiwalla Prime Minister - whose picture is on nearly every petrol pump in India, on huge billboards announcing his LPG scheme for empowering women - you may have to ask different kinds of questions. If I were his finance minister, I might ask you, "How many votes can you swing in five years?" </div><div><br></div><div>Oh, sorry. Not my questions again. Your questions, assuming you want to sell something to a cook, with enough money to be able to buy some food items and fuel for a month at a time (not get them every day or three times a week), and has enough time for cooking (and not worry about another job outside home or any household chores or time to read to a child or watch TV at a neighbor's).</div><div><br></div><div>1. How much does charcoal sell for around here? How would you sell it if you sold it?</div><div><br></div><div>2. Do you want to leave a stove unattended for an hour? What times and how often?</div><div><br></div><div>3. Do you like to cut your wood in fine pieces? Or would you buy your fuel at 10 USc a kilo?</div><div><br></div><div>4. When it gets warmer around here, what do you do - get out of the kitchen?</div><div><br></div><div>5. What does your garden fetch you? How do you fertilize it? How much is it worth to you if your cooking produced just the fertilizer you want (because I say so)? </div><div><br></div><div>I too wrote in favor of cooking solutions for the poor in terms of co-benefits of GHG reduction and health in order to please donors and their research consultants. I will readily do so again if I got a half million dollars to help move a few billion dollars to the poor to help them buy fuels and stoves of their choice. I have no problem beseeching the donors, misleading USEPA bureaucrats; after all, they only have their careers to worry about, and "happier cooks" are only an incidental co-benefit. <br><br>Who knows, if we liberated tomorrow's mothers from the drudgery of cooking and instead invest in their and their children's education, we might have some more environmental regulators. Win, win, win!</div><div><br>Nikhil</div><div><br></div><div><br>Nikhil Desai<div>+91 909 995 2080</div><div>Skype: nikhildesai888</div></div><div><br>On Aug 30, 2016, at 12:16 AM, "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>Nikhil:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I made six positive claimed points about TLUDs. How about your rephrasing each to help (or restrain) we who are trying to sell a (claimed) improved stove?Same request to Cecil.</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Aug 29, 2016, at 10:01 PM, Nikhil Desai <<a href="mailto:pienergy2008@gmail.com" target="_blank">pienergy2008@gmail.com</a>> wrote:</div><br><div><div dir="auto"><div>Ron:</div><div><br></div><div>I know nothing @TLUD, but I won't think much of answers to these questions one way or another. </div><div><br></div><div>But I do consider these to be "leading questions" meant to elicit a biased answer. </div><div><br></div><div>It is tragic to see people falling in the trap of believing themselves by getting convenient confirmations by means of leading questions. </div><div><br></div><div>Am I not correct? :-)</div><div><br></div><div>Not that I want to be. </div><div><br></div><div>I salute unshakeable faith as the method of 21st Century "science".</div><div><br></div><div>Now ask me when I stopped lying. </div><div><br></div><div>Anybody out to measure intelligence and desire knows neither. S/he is just one blind among many in the zoo trying to define an elephant. </div><div><br></div><div>Please excuse my impudence. I have no desire - for a biomass stove - nor intelligence. </div><div><br></div><div>As always, wrong questions guarantee wrong answers. </div><div><br></div><div>N</div><div><br>Nikhil Desai<div>+91 909 995 2080</div><div>Skype: nikhildesai888</div></div><div><br>On Aug 29, 2016, at 11:15 PM, "Ronal W. Larson" <<a href="mailto:rongretlarson@comcast.net" target="_blank">rongretlarson@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div>Cecil, Nikhil, list et al:</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>This is the first time I have understood Cecil’s interview methodology, where he says below his (and Crispin’s) method was: “..<span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><i>to minimally tweak </i></span></div><div><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><i>traditional stoves</i></span><span style="color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> ..</span><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3">” This obviously is biased against TLUDs and charcoal - making. I contend this also underestimates the intelligence and desires of the rural cook.</font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><br></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>I wonder if any other person doing stove questionnaires or knows of their existence has ever seen one that asked any question pertinent to TLUDs? Examples of questions I would like to see asked (and never have seen) are:</font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><br></font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>1. Would you consider a stove that could be paid off in months from the charcoal you could make with it?</font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>2. How would you rank the importance of using a stove that you could leave unattended for an hour?</font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>3. Would you consider buying a stove that could use very small pieces of fuel?</font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>4. Would a stove that helped address global warming be important to you?</font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>5. Would you consider a stove whose charcoal output could possibly double the productivity of your garden?</font></div><div><font color="#1f497d" face="Calibri, Slate Pro, sans-serif, sans-serif" size="3"><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></font></div><div>I assume questions are regularly asked about emissions - so TLUDs might have a small consumer advantage there. But one would have to know the relative advantage - such as asking about a biomass cook stove that could be cleaner than a kerosene stove. I doubt such health-related questions have been asked.</div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span>So I ask Cecil (who I have known for decades) if he has ever asked any stove questions like these above - or ever seen any such? What answers would he expect? What would Nikhil (who I have also communicated with decades ago) think would be the answers?</div><div><br></div><div>Ron</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><span style="white-space:pre-wrap"> </span></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><br><div><blockquote type="cite"><div>On Aug 29, 2016, at 11:46 AM, <a href="mailto:cec1863@gmail.com" target="_blank">cec1863@gmail.com</a> wrote:</div><br><div><div lang="en-US" style="line-height:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> <div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Greetings Traveller aka Nikhil,</div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Thank you for your swashbuckling frankness about the fundamental foolishness of expecting abstract ISO standards, metrics, and household stove performance tests to lead the stovers and stove producers of the planet into a paradise of smokeless pollution free biomass cooking and space heating.</div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">From where I sit on the sidelines these days I see a tragic perversion of the potential for a holistic "science" of small household stoves by many different competing commercial, professional political, gender and lifestyle interest groups. We are forced to fight the battle of armgeddon simply to decide what parameters and assessment methodologies can be trusted to guide the development of simple $10 improved stoves for the 1/3 of humankind at the bottom of the world scrum. </div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">My question is how do we generate a respectful conversations between the various role players involved in the scrum to innovate, produce and promote user friendly and responsive improved household stoves that are affordable and can successfully compete for market share without any subsidy. </div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">That means the end of outsourcing to China and the end of imported stoves selling for ± $100 with or without carbon credits when there are locally made stoves being produced, distributed and sold for under $5 by traditional artisans. </div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I am a backslid (defrocked) anthropologist so the first thing I do is investigate the already institutionalized stove technologies and all of the stove management and fuel use 'culture' which surrounds the TECHNOS with what used to be called "ethno-science". The mrta-culture between the stove and the plasma of knowledge and symbols might be referred to as the human factors which mediate the relationship between stove users and their stoves. OK. That is where I choose to start. Other professional stovers have other skills, interests and points of intervention. </div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">My contribution to a hopefully respectful conversation with fellow stovers is informed by decades of AT based self help develop projects in South Africa. My bottom up development process was guided and informed by my effort to answer this question: how do we collaborate with partners and potential beneficiaries so as to get the greatest possible benefits for the largest number with the smallest possible intervention and at the smallest possible cost per brnefit/beneficiary????</div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Unfortunately, the thrust of BIG AID and BIG DEVELOPMENT agencies (remember Big Nurse in One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest?) is to massively intervene from the top down and in the process massively disrupt the traditional stove/fuel/pot/kitchen layout/producer/</div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">marketing "system". It is worth pointing out that there is an indigenous stove/fuel culture and economy in place that has been cooking food, heating homes, making and selling stoves, and supplying fuel for many generations.</div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">I only have one simple suggestion about a possible master strategy: slow and steady change strategy will radically out perform the massive disruption strategy that is favored by Big Development. </div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Crispin and I combined to propose and demonstrate the feasibility of a stove improvement develpment process in Mongolia and Java that involved using stove science to minimally tweak traditional stoves so that their emission and efficiency performance eventually approaches the high stardards of an EPA approved clean cookstove. </div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">IMO such high standards are bureaucratic impositions that needlessly disempower the stakeholers and role players in traditional <span style="font-size:initial;line-height:initial;text-align:initial">stove/fuel/<wbr>producer systems. </span></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-size:initial;line-height:initial;text-align:initial"><br></span></div><div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span style="font-size:initial;line-height:initial;text-align:initial">For me as a old man observing the counter productivity of the stove wars in places like Sudan and many other places in Africa, Asia and the Pacific. If we are to make real progress in the small stove/biomass fuel economy it is necessary for all role players to take deep breaths, cool off, depoliticize, speak kindly to colleagues, and grow the common ground that unites us all in our quest for an infinite series of apprpriate "good" little cooking and heating stoves.</span></div> <div style="width:100%;font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><br></div> <div style="font-size:initial;font-family:calibri,"slate pro",sans-serif,sans-serif;color:rgb(31,73,125);text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)">Sent from my BlackBerry 10 <wbr>smartphone.</div> <table width="100%" style="background-color:white"> <tbody><tr><td colspan="2" style="font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"> <div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(181,196,223);border-top-width:1pt;padding:3pt 0in 0in;font-family:tahoma,"bb alpha sans","slate pro";font-size:10pt"> <div><b>From: </b>Traveller</div><div><b>Sent: </b>Monday, August 29, 2016 10:13 AM</div><div><b>To: </b><a href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net" target="_blank">neiltm@uwclub.net</a></div><div><b>Reply To: </b><a href="mailto:miata98@gmail.com" target="_blank">miata98@gmail.com</a></div><div><b>Cc: </b>Discussion of biomass cooking stoves</div><div><b>Subject: </b>Re: [Stoves] forced draft (Re: A Karve 13 August)</div></div></td></tr></tbody></table><div style="border-style:solid none none;border-top-color:rgb(186,188,209);border-top-width:1pt;font-size:initial;text-align:initial;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">Neil: <br><br>Thank you. I learned a little about biochar from a "stover" friend, guru from decades ago - Stephen Joseph - back in 2008 but then lost track. I am glad to read from you that there are consumer products now that you consider "So versatile". <br><br>It is a gross error to ignore versatility and flexibility, and buy into the USEPA propaganda of Water Boiling Tests. GACC could be a Faustian Bargain. Except perhaps to those who pay the Clinton Foundation to play at the gala performances of WJC and HRC. <br><br>I wonder if WHO Is fooling EPA - that its IAQ guideline is to be taken as Moses' Fifteenth Commandment (all others can be ignored, just like WHO's OAQ guideline is) - of EPA is fooling WHO - that its ratings based on a silly test protocol for emission rates and area modeling will somehow translate into mass acceptance and reduction in premature mortality. (There will always be premature mortality; the GBD people will find something else to blame it on, for example boredom with academia.)<br><br>Versatile. Durable. What a breath of fresh air, compared to the intellectual smoke of Washington, DC. <br><br>If we are to continue this "cobenefits" paradigm - the pretension of saving trees, lives, and climate - we might as well add in the co-benefits of biochar, and assign value to customer satisfaction. The customer is sovereign, not the expert class engaged in mutual back-scratching. <br><br><br>Nikhil<br><br><br><br><br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br clear="all"><div><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px"><br>---------</span></div><div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:georgia,serif;font-size:12.8px">(India +91) 909 995 2080</span><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
<br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 20, 2016 at 5:56 AM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:neiltm@uwclub.net" target="_blank">neiltm@uwclub.net</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span>On 19 Aug 2016 at 19:25, Traveller wrote:<br>
<br>
> I remembered how some charcoal fires used to be run with a hand<br>
> blower. I found a modern version on Amazon.in, here<br>
</span>> <<a href="http://www.amazon.in/Grill-Blower-Charcoal-Grills-Fireplaces/dp/B011" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.in/Grill-Bl<wbr>ower-Charcoal-Grills-Fireplace<wbr>s/dp/B011</a><br>
> 7F268 0><br>
<br>
These can sometimes be purchased for as little as one GB pound in pound<br>
shops in the UK (and a little more on ebay), and are excellent for<br>
starting or reviving volcano kettles when there is no wind and/or<br>
reluctant fuel, or for reviving a TLUD which has gone out, by simply<br>
blasting it into the top until the flame rekindles well enough to<br>
sustain, or less urgently applying it gently to the bottom outside<br>
airholes which can help a flagging NDTLUD revive sometimes. I use it as<br>
an occasional 'rescue' in other words. Sustained use of it would be<br>
tedious as well as occupying both hands. They seem surprisingly durable<br>
as well. I've had the same one for years.<br>
<br>
Just cooked a nice omelette on one of the Chinese NTLUDs using very fine<br>
dry wood chip - almost chain saw sawdust size. This restricts the<br>
primary air nicely for a lengthy sustained moderate heat, but there is no<br>
possibility to add fuel at the end of the batch to keep it going, yet<br>
even such micro char successfully fuels our BBQ. Using much larger fuel<br>
allows for indefinite burn time whether beginning the burn as a TLUD or<br>
not. So versatile these stoves. Much as I enjoyed the Reed fan woodgas<br>
campstoves, I no longer take them on trips now, but still use them<br>
occasionally at home.<br>
<br>
Neil Taylor<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
<br></div></div>
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